Anniversary of Israeli massacre

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/30/desmond-tutu-palestinians-israel

This is an old piece but worth a read. The fact is that Tutu and Mandela had a unique understanding of how oppression and brutalisation can lead to terrorism. The ANC was dubbed a terrorist organisation and Mandela was arrested for committing/planning terrorist acts in SA.
None of this forgives the loss of innocent lives but it should help us to see how futile Netanyahus war efforts are inasmuch as the Palestinian problem isn’t going to disappear and even if Hamas are all killed or surrender that will not make Israel any safer but rather more insecure with other groups springing up to replace Hamas. Where hatred and violence are sown a bitter harvest will result. And I doubt very much that the majority of families of those killed in Gaza will see Hamas as responsible, and whether we agree with that or not it is hardly going to lead to a people being related to take whatever crumbs Israel wants to throw throw their way once the war is over.
As Bowen says, the majority of Israelis are unaware that many in the rest of the world do not view the war as they do.

Farzanah

The indiscriminate slaughter on this scale will be a terrible legacy for Israel and ensures their future will never be safe and secure.

Exactly this.

With Hamas in Gaza what future ?

The indiscriminate slaughter on this scale will be a terrible legacy for Israel and ensures their future will never be safe and secure.

Israel should accept Hamas runs Gaza and remain passive whilst Hamas attacks ?

Hamas is a terrorist organisation and I do not support it but two wrongs do not make a right and the tens of thousands of innocent people that Israel have slaughtered can never be justified. The number of people directly killed by Israel far exceeds those that Hamas have ever killed in all its terrorist activities.

Oreo

Pulling out of Gaza too early would be a big mistake for Israel, being in there and gradually reducing what’s left of hamas is the best way to both get the hostages back and finish what they intended to do, which is the collapse of hamas as a fighting force and a political one in Gaza.

This.

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Pulling out of Gaza too early would be a big mistake for Israel, being in there and gradually reducing what’s left of hamas is the best way to both get the hostages back and finish what they intended to do, which is the collapse of hamas as a fighting force and a political one in Gaza.

Please read this in the Guardian today about the civilians in northern Gaza we've just been discussing, and the Generals Plan:

www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/26/israel-generals-plan-clear-north-gaza-palestinians

amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/26/israel-generals-plan-clear-north-gaza-palestinians

@annie the bbc are not wrong they reported what Hamas said. They know that Israel is flushing all Palestinians out of Northern Gaza so they can kill anyone left then militarise the North, fencing it off from any Palestinians trying to return.
This has been well publicised by hardliners in the government, and can be seen happening in real time on bbc and channel 4 news every night.

Quote Babs03 Sat 26-Oct-24 21:52:28
Anniebach
Hamas is telling 40,000 to stay where they are, they will not be
allowed back
Not by Hamas, they know that the Israelis will insist upon ‘no right to return’ for Palestinians to any land grabbed by Israel, which is what they are doing with Northern Gaza. In a nutshell they will not be allowed back by Israel. Thus has happened historically.

Thank you, so BBC was so wrong

Will wholesale death, destruction and reducing Gaza to a wasteland help Hamas to listen or will it mean that many more terrorists spring up in their wake?

Anniebach

Hamas is telling 40,000 to stay where they are, they will not be
allowed back

Not by Hamas, they know that the Israelis will insist upon ‘no right to return’ for Palestinians to any land grabbed by Israel, which is what they are doing with Northern Gaza. In a nutshell they will not be allowed back by Israel. Thus has happened historically.

Hamas could stop it but will not

I just can’t believe how the murder and starvation of innocent children and families is being carried out in plain sight and tolerated by so called civilised countries.

Babs03

@David after the death of Yahya Sinwar which other commander are they bombing the place for? Even western leaders urged an end after that and negotiations to free the hostages.So why is the Generals Plan being undertaken in Northern Gaza?? Jeremy Bowen wrote a good piece about this a few days ago.
Is an attempt to encircle and bomb/lay seige to Northern Gaza, either killing or starving those encircled.
If you can live with that good luck to you but I find it horrifying.

Groups of Hamas fighters continue to attack the Israelis, wherever they attack from will attract an Israeli air strike, resisting is pointless.
It’s clear that Hamas is still in control of the civilian population and prolonging the suffering, they could release the hostages and have a ceasefire, they are not interested, so the suffering will continue.
Israel has been more successful in its campaign against extremists that most expected, backed by the US they can keep it up for a long time, probably the change will come when Iran backs down and stops sponsoring terrorism, that won’t happen soon.

Hamas is telling 40,000 to stay where they are, they will not be
allowed back

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1e82yy0wxno

Btw blaming Hamas works some of the time, but not all of the time, and then it is just plain genocide.

@David after the death of Yahya Sinwar which other commander are they bombing the place for? Even western leaders urged an end after that and negotiations to free the hostages.So why is the Generals Plan being undertaken in Northern Gaza?? Jeremy Bowen wrote a good piece about this a few days ago.
Is an attempt to encircle and bomb/lay seige to Northern Gaza, either killing or starving those encircled.
If you can live with that good luck to you but I find it horrifying.

Babs03

The fact is people are understandably upset and angry about a war that is creating so many fatalities and displaced civilians, but nobody is making antisemitic remarks they are making anti-Netanyahu and his hardline cronies remarks. Hamas did something obscene on 7th October nobody is doubting that. Nobody is saying otherwise. And nobody is saying Hamas or Hezbollah are the good guys in all of this. Fact is there are no good guys in all of this. But I really can't accept that for every 42,000 fatalities - certainly more because thousands are buried under rubble - there were Hamas operatives there in every single case, indeed the IDF made a mistake when they bombed the British aid workers, there were no Hamas operatives there then, and again when they killed UN workers and hundreds of journalists.
If Hamas were to be there in every single bombing there would need to be more Hamas members than the entire population of Gaza. Can this be true?

Hamas was and is using schools and hospitals as their military control points, deliberately maximizing civilian deaths, while they disappeared into the tunnels below.

Propaganda is their only weapon, the more martyrs the better, they deliberately sacrificed their own civilians and are continuing to this day. I’m not sure if they expected Israel to pound Gaza to rubble and kill 40000+, it must be clear now that Israel will fight to the last Palestinian.

Any normal military command would surrender, I guess Hamas isn’t normal

The fact is people are understandably upset and angry about a war that is creating so many fatalities and displaced civilians, but nobody is making antisemitic remarks they are making anti-Netanyahu and his hardline cronies remarks. Hamas did something obscene on 7th October nobody is doubting that. Nobody is saying otherwise. And nobody is saying Hamas or Hezbollah are the good guys in all of this. Fact is there are no good guys in all of this. But I really can't accept that for every 42,000 fatalities - certainly more because thousands are buried under rubble - there were Hamas operatives there in every single case, indeed the IDF made a mistake when they bombed the British aid workers, there were no Hamas operatives there then, and again when they killed UN workers and hundreds of journalists.
If Hamas were to be there in every single bombing there would need to be more Hamas members than the entire population of Gaza. Can this be true?

PS. If I were a Palestinian farmer living in the West Bank, I think I might be worried about Israelis.