The former prime minister of New Zealand has been made a Dame by the Prince of Wales despite being a republican.

My idea for the 2nd chamber would be that seats are reserved for particular interest groups: for each religion and for a humanist or non-religious organisation; for physically disabled groups and blind, deaf, mental disabilities, neurodivergent. For each of the ethnic minorities, for sexual and gender minorities, for each of the industries including farming. For experts in each science and social work.

Each of the sectors who can have one or more seats will be responsible for electing their own representatives who can use the allocated seats. I think this would be a good way of someone spotting any drawbacks to legislature sent to the second house, and a wonderful range of debate. I mean, why would an actor, no matter how brilliant on the stage, be expected to speak for a farmer, for example? Are all the professions and interest groups represented if it relies on the honours system to get into the House of Lords? I would think not

I don't think Prime Ministers should decide on them either. They tend to put people into the Lords specifically to reward past favours or people they know will support particular political issues.

Honours should not be related to the Royal Family at all. They are decided on by committees and Prime Ministers. We are a democracy and these honours really should not be political.

Transgender Trend have done some analysis of the studies done in relation to transition regret and raised concern about their reliability. Their info is worth a read although they are on a particular 'side' of the debate. The picture is quite mixed I would say. Lack of follow up in relation to outcomes after puberty blockers etc was one of the concerns raised in the Cass report with regard to young people. My unprofessional opinion is that it is a complete mess.

Well of course the New Zealanders have now elected another government, a different government, so one has to assume that the majority of the population no longer wanted a Labour government.
I think that rather settles the argument about what the majority of the population in New Zealand wanted. It was not a JA led government and she probably recognised that which is likely why she resigned.

I also googled as widely as possible but could find no report of regrets higher than 13%.

sazz1

I think everyone should like or dislike individual people not just like or dislike everyone because they are in a certain group, ethnicity or gender. If someone is a nice, kind person I like them, if they are mean, spiteful hurtful people I don't.
I actually know 3 transgender people and all have had surgery. One deeply regrets it, the others don't.
Recent research surveying trans people found 80% had pain for 5years after trans surgery. Also 50% regret having trans surgery.

Do you have a link to that research because my Googling led to much lower percentages being reported - in some cases as low as 1%, but I accept that different studies have different results. So I'd be very interested to look at the one you found that gave a higher regret figure.

Thank you for clarifying that, maddyfour

All I said was thst I agreed with your post, particularly about people here in the UK who did wax lyrical about anything that Ms Ardern said or did when they had no association whatsoever with that country.

I think we were just pointing out that not everyone we spoke to who lives there agreed with all her policies during the pandemic.
Some of the other comments such as critics of Jacinda, tend towards the conspiracy theorists/ anti vaxxers/ flat earthers/ rabid right wingers are just plain wrong nor are they misogynists, class conscious or racists.

You may not be aware, MrsFlowers, that Jacinda Ardern spent two years here working as an adviser to Tony Blair's government too.

Perhaps the problem was that, having achieved so much at such an early age, as she herself said, she had no more to give.

By the way MrsFlowers, you were quoting my post.
I’m not a conspiracy theorist, a flat earther, or an anti vaxxer, not a rabid right winger!

By the way, wasn’t JA rather late to the party in getting her country fully vaccinated!

I think you’ve misunderstood MrsFlowers. Obviously your view is very much valid because you live in NZ, but the view of others who have never even visited NZ, let alone talked to anyone who lives there, their views based on God knows what, probably the usual gunk churned out on television or The Guardian (that’s a newspaper by the way) then I’m sorry, whilst your view is valid, the views of people who live twelve thousand miles away and have never been to NZ, are views based on fresh air.

I have visited NZ because my daughter lives there, and whilst I wouldn’t dream of presuming that I know more than you, because I don’t, I do know what my daughter’s friends told me, and what the landlords/landladies of various properties we stayed in told us, and what people we met through our daily interactions told us, and yes, we’re friendly people and we chat to people wherever we travel.

One of the main complaints, in common with the UK, is the health service in NZ. Maybe you’re happy with it, but I think without exception, the people we talked to were not happy with it. My daughter, who is a GP in NZ, is not happy with it, and this was under, and shortly after JA was in power. It hasn’t improved now either. UK residents would be horrified by the number of things that have to be paid for in NZ, including GP visits, and essential treatments. Also state pensions were complained about, and inflation was complained about, but a big complaint was about the number of businesses that closed under JA’s draconian lockdown rules.

There will always be people who defend their chosen political party and people who appraise without bias. That’s human nature.

MrsFlowers

Allira

It’s very easy to wax lyrical about a political leader in a country that is twelve thousand miles away, takes a minimum of 24 hours to travel to, and who has no direct effect on your life, particularly if that leader has politics that you agree with. There’s nothing that can beat the real life experience of travelling there, and talking to the the real people who live there. That way, you learn much.

👏👏👏

You could try talking to me. I live in NZ and have been here for more than 20 years. When I first arrived in NZ, Jacinda used to have a regular slot on the morning news - her and a young national guy called Simon Bridges. They were touted as the young guns of politics and even then I was really impressed by her.

I find that those who are vehement critics of Jacinda, tend towards the conspiracy theorists/ anti vaxxers/ flat earthers/ rabid right wingers. Whilst she was in office, there was absolute nonsense talked about her affable TV presenter husband (he hosted a fishing show FFS), none of which came to anything at all. All mean spirited lies. The criticism of Jacinda came from a place of misogyny, classism and racism (no, she isn’t Māori but she has always been a strong defender of the Maori language and did a good deal of work in trying to work with Maori politicians - all being undone now by the current shower of shits). I’m gonna wax lyrical about her because she was great and in my view, those who criticised her so roundly and who spouted the control narrative, were afraid of her femaleness, her intelligence and her grown up style of politics.

Sure the real life experience of talking to people who live in NZ is valuable, but if you limit the circle of people you talk to, you’ll hear a very one-eyed view.

I don't know why you attributed that quote to me because I did not say it, MrsFlowers although I agree with this in principle:
It’s very easy to wax lyrical about a political leader in a country that is twelve thousand miles away, takes a minimum of 24 hours to travel to, and who has no direct effect on your life

I totally disassociate myself from the rest of your post.

We have visited New Zealand, have NZ cousins and friends there and the ones we have spoken to were not keen on Jacinda.
DH also has a cousin with Māori heritage from his mother's side of the family.

So do not attribute the views in your post to me.

Allira

^It’s very easy to wax lyrical about a political leader in a country that is twelve thousand miles away, takes a minimum of 24 hours to travel to, and who has no direct effect on your life, particularly if that leader has politics that you agree with. There’s nothing that can beat the real life experience of travelling there, and talking to the the real people who live there. That way, you learn much.^

👏👏👏

You could try talking to me. I live in NZ and have been here for more than 20 years. When I first arrived in NZ, Jacinda used to have a regular slot on the morning news - her and a young national guy called Simon Bridges. They were touted as the young guns of politics and even then I was really impressed by her.

I find that those who are vehement critics of Jacinda, tend towards the conspiracy theorists/ anti vaxxers/ flat earthers/ rabid right wingers. Whilst she was in office, there was absolute nonsense talked about her affable TV presenter husband (he hosted a fishing show FFS), none of which came to anything at all. All mean spirited lies. The criticism of Jacinda came from a place of misogyny, classism and racism (no, she isn’t Māori but she has always been a strong defender of the Maori language and did a good deal of work in trying to work with Maori politicians - all being undone now by the current shower of shits). I’m gonna wax lyrical about her because she was great and in my view, those who criticised her so roundly and who spouted the control narrative, were afraid of her femaleness, her intelligence and her grown up style of politics.

Sure the real life experience of talking to people who live in NZ is valuable, but if you limit the circle of people you talk to, you’ll hear a very one-eyed view.

Calendargirl

^I don’t think I’ve ever holidayed in another country and talked to people about their politicians^

Well, you’ve missed out then. We were in the USA a little while before Trump and Hillary Clinton were fighting it out, and several Americans chatted to us about their political leanings, who they planned to vote for, what they disliked about ‘the other one’.

It was fascinating.

We passed no opinions, just listened.

Well that is a little different to the poster who apparently didn't meet one person in NZ who had a positive thing to say about JA where as you met several people. The people the other poster was talking about were talking about the PM before last whereas you were hearing about something current, again not the same.

However, on holiday I chat to people about places of interest to visit, where to get good local food, they might talk about their visit to England. I can't remember a single holiday where local residents have wanted to talk to me about their Prime Minister before last and to be honest I'd find it a bit boring as JA is no longer the PM, she isn't even the previous PM so yes it seems an odd thing to be doing on holiday. I guess we all get our fun in different ways.

Isn't there normally advice about don't discuss religion or politics?

I don’t think I’ve ever holidayed in another country and talked to people about their politicians

Well, you’ve missed out then. We were in the USA a little while before Trump and Hillary Clinton were fighting it out, and several Americans chatted to us about their political leanings, who they planned to vote for, what they disliked about ‘the other one’.

It was fascinating.

We passed no opinions, just listened.

GrannyRose15

I didn’t know the Prince of Wakes could make anyone a dame. I thought it was the prerogative of the King and his parliament.

I didn’t know the Prince of Wales could make anyone a dame
He didn't.

He presented Jacinda Ardern with her Damehood because he was presiding at this particular investiture.

I think everyone should like or dislike individual people not just like or dislike everyone because they are in a certain group, ethnicity or gender. If someone is a nice, kind person I like them, if they are mean, spiteful hurtful people I don't.
I actually know 3 transgender people and all have had surgery. One deeply regrets it, the others don't.
Recent research surveying trans people found 80% had pain for 5years after trans surgery. Also 50% regret having trans surgery.

Chardy

theworriedwell NZ people seem to talk to everybody about everything. I remember going to buy some flowers, and after 5 minutes the florist (lovely young woman) had told us all about her recent hospitalisation!

Not quite the same as a discussion about your feelings about the former PM, she wasn't even the last PM was she. Are any of us really spending time talking to tourists about Liz Truss?

I didn’t know the Prince of Wakes could make anyone a dame. I thought it was the prerogative of the King and his parliament.

theworriedwell NZ people seem to talk to everybody about everything. I remember going to buy some flowers, and after 5 minutes the florist (lovely young woman) had told us all about her recent hospitalisation!

julieray

I was on holiday in New Zealand this time last year and was shocked by how different our perception of her was to theirs. I didn’t meet one person who could say a good word about her - and we travelled right across both islands. A common theme was that her husband was allegedly involved with some shady people. Its a shame as she was someone I admired albeit from the other side of the world

I can't imagine going halfway round the world to holiday in a country which I've heard is very beautiful and spending my time discussing a previous prime minister.

I suppose we all enjoy different things but I don't think I've ever holidayed in another country and talked to people about their politicians.

Some apparently did the run anyway, despite storm Ashley which was the reason for the cancellation. Conditions were awful, but not quite as dangerous as was predicted I think.

Well this is very Northern of me, but I had no idea that there is a Great South Run, how insular of me. So sorry it was cancelled. I watched the start of the Great North Run in Sept as my son was running, it poured!

Yes TerriBull, it appears that the lockdown was not well thought of in NZ, but many here thought it was the best way forward. As I said up thread, lockdown as a way to control a virus is worthy of it’s own thread, and not only do people hold different views, many people have changed their views since the pandemic.

My own judgement is that people in NZ were fed up of JA, and possibly that was at least in part, brought about because of the very strict lockdown. Nonetheless she their PM for a time, and was in power during Covid. With regard to the Damehood, I’m unsure exactly why she has been awarded it. Do all PMs get an honour in NZ? I don’t know the answer to that, but it’s possibly the usual thing to do. Otherwise I’m not sure exactly why she’s got it. It certainly can’t be because she once said ‘be kind.’

It’s a bit hypocritical to accept it if she believes NZ should ultimately become a republic, but I find that little different to all the lords and ladies sitting in the House of Lords, but who actually disagree with royalty and titles!

Now I must get on with finishing the lunch because the family will be arriving soon (obviously not the ones who live in NZ) The Great South Run was cancelled today due to bad weather and so we’ll cheer them up with a bit of home cooking. No doubt, as ever, our much missed family in NZ will be one topic of conversation. (Last year they were here and all three ran The Great South Run.) That was a lovely day.

We met up with our NZ friends who live in Auckland a couple of years ago, and their opinions of JA were pretty much an echo of those posted by Maddyfour and Cossy, particularly in relation to the lockdown.

Everyone has their own interpretation of kindness which renders the phrase meaningless. Many think its kind to champion sex work, many think its cruelty, many think it's kind to pretend men are wonen, many think its cruel. What it generally means is think like I think.