The SNP are telling us there are 24 genders.

jasper16

HousePlantQueen

Why does everyone in here fret about men putting on a frock and going into female toilets? As a woman, I can identify as male and go into the gents toilets. Next time I am in a long queue for the facilities, I may do so. Grim choice though.

Oh bloody hell! I have identified as Disabled when nearly having an accident.

It's not always easy to get up from some loos so ones with a grab handle next to them are useful.

The list was attached last week to guidance for public bodies in Scotland who collect data on sex and gender. It allows them to classify freehand answers given to questions about trans status.

But it comes after First Minister John Swinney in July confirmed there were only two genders.

2? 24? Or anything in between? Feel free to choose.

HousePlantQueen

Why does everyone in here fret about men putting on a frock and going into female toilets? As a woman, I can identify as male and go into the gents toilets. Next time I am in a long queue for the facilities, I may do so. Grim choice though.

Oh bloody hell! I have identified as Disabled when nearly having an accident.

Doodledog

What does 'behave as a woman' mean, David?

Whatever answer someone comes up with it will be different from how women behaved 100 years ago, and how they behave in other cultures. However far back you go, and however far away, women are female and men are male, however. Gender is not fixed, it is constructed. Sex is biological.

If a man wants to wear a dress, he can crack on, as far as I'm concerned, but wearing it doesn't give him a right to enter spaces reserved for women and girls. If we allow that, we have effectively erased the protection that feminists fought for, and have removed the right to privacy and dignity when naked, ill, restricted in movement or otherwise vulnerable for all women and girls. If anyone thinks that is ok, as mens' 'feelings' are more important than women's safety, I would ask them why they think these spaces were introduced in the first place?

We can all go to the pub, sit on a train, walk in the park wearing what we like and that's fine, but hospitals, changing rooms, prisons, care homes and DV hostels are different because they house vulnerable women and girls and should be off limits for men, however they 'present' themselves.

This.
Absolutely agree Doodledog.

I don't see the value of collecting this detail unless you are in some specialist field, as it seems unrelated to the policy details like toilets or hospitals we've been discussing above.

They are apparently asking people who have ID'd as trans already "which sort".

FriedGreenTomatoes2

A Scottish Government spokesman said: “The point of the survey is to collect information on the respondents’ trans history and how they would define it. It is therefore important that the survey is designed in such a way that allows that information to be captured.”

🥱

Yes, the Telegraph Wyllow, yesterday. It captured my interest.

As you will have noted, I also quoted what a Scottish Government spokesman said about their list - to give context.

NotSpaghetti

Is thete a LINK to this somewhere please?

Because this list sounds so bizarre, I simply googled the title, and it comes from the Telegraph, which is behind a paywall. No other sources (as yet?) Its not in the Scotsman.

I just wanted to find out more as regards what this arbitrary list (given that other bodies list more or less) is for?

Keeper1

I don’t have a problem with a man deciding today I am going to be woman what I do have a problem with is that as a self identifying woman he uses women only spaces etc. people can say they identify as whatever they want but it doesn’t make it so

Well said Keeper. Respectful yet sensible. 👏

NotSpaghetti

Is thete a LINK to this somewhere please?

Good question. Sorry for my knee-jerk responses, but frankly nothing would surprise me these days, and the responses will apply to something, whether this is true of not

Jewelle

For a group of people who don’t like to be labelled, they sure like a label.

Is thete a LINK to this somewhere please?

For a group of people who don’t like to be labelled, they sure like a label.

David49

So it’s OK for a man to wake up one morning and decide “Im going to be female today” put on a dress and make up and behave as a woman.

In the same way as a woman can dress and “act” like a man.

Frankly, I simply don’t care, so long as the majorities “rights” are safeguarded and no one is in danger, I really really don’t care!

I know a transgender (female to male) had many surgeries and hormones and very happily married to a woman. They are a lovely couple, do promote and support both gay and transgender causes, but not in a “shoved down your throat” manner, don’t expect “special” treatment and happy to discuss the transition, and why, if asked, otherwise simply get on with their lives.

I think some men, when using urinals may not want random women passing through their private spaces, although having said that, much of these new phenomenons barely impact on them. It is mainly women who bear the brunt.

Regarding toilets and changing rooms, it is a fact that young and adolescent girls will visit the women's toilets, be in changing rooms unaccompanied and may feel very. very uncomfortable to see an obvious male dressed as a woman. Anyone remember the Eddie Izzard debacle where he got into a slanging match with a couple of teenage schoolgirls who challenged his right to be in the female loos? They didn't know who he was and felt he could be a threat to them. Maybe using changing rooms focuses the mind, I've been a member of various health clubs for years. I think it would be unacceptable to the majority of women to have an intact male in an area where they and children are often in the state of undress. I have also gone to mine in the afternoon when it's sometimes quiet, occasionally I have been the only one there, with that in mind who wants to emerge from a shower to find a person of the opposite sex in that area, alarming is my thought! As others have said, it is not about how anyone chooses to identify, that is their prerogative, but it is how that may impact on women in the context of areas that should pertain to us. I have read about American sportswomen who have challenged the presence of an intact trans woman in such a situation and they are then told "go change in the toilets" and resulting scenarios see the trans woman having an entire changing room to themselves whilst their female competitors are crammed into the loos because they had the temerity to say they felt uncomfortable, anyone who thinks that's reasonable is bowing to unreasonable pressure of over entitled people imo.

HousePlantQueen

Why does everyone in here fret about men putting on a frock and going into female toilets? As a woman, I can identify as male and go into the gents toilets. Next time I am in a long queue for the facilities, I may do so. Grim choice though.

I think you'll find it's a great deal more than just about toilets. Are you really totally unaware of men identifying as women and then participating in women's sports where their biological advantage not only cheats the women out of prizes but can seriously compromise their safety? Or the men (even sex offenders) identifying as women to get placed in a women's prison? Or the men who want to share communal showers and changing rooms with naked and therefore vulnerable women?
I don't agree with you potentially breaching men's privacy who are using a urinal by going into the male toilets. That you'd feel safe to do so illustrates that a man in a frock would also be safe so why would he use the women's toilet which as you say generally has longer queues?

HousePlantQueen

Why does everyone in here fret about men putting on a frock and going into female toilets? As a woman, I can identify as male and go into the gents toilets. Next time I am in a long queue for the facilities, I may do so. Grim choice though.

I don't 'fret'. That suggests passivity. Yes, passivity is associated with the female gender, but that illustrates how nonsensical it is. I don't 'fret' I get angry.

If a man 'puts on a frock' or if he wears a boilersuit and a beard and comes into female toilets he is trespassing on a women's space. He is signalling a lack of respect for women's privacy, safety and dignity, which is good enough reason to keep him out of there. Where women are unclothed, away from other people, attending to things like periods and other personal functions they have a right to know who is around them.

Even in 'the wild', if a woman has to relieve herself outdoors, where possible she will find someone to 'keep cavey' for her and warn her of approaching people, or to ask them to leave. It's instinctive. In prison, in hospital and so on people are vulnerable to assault because they are confined and may be restricted by illness or incapacity. In those circumstances people want to know that steps are being taken to protect them from assault. That is not to say that all transwomen are likely to assault anyone, but to say that if men are allowed in (whatever they wear) some of them will have nefarious intent.

The clothes are a red herring. I don't care whether women wear dresses or jeans around me, and the same applies to men. I do care if men are around vulnerable women and girls though. Women are assaulted and killed by men every day, and where they are vulnerable they need as much protection as possible. I am neither ill nor very old, but the odds are that I will be either or both sooner than I'd prefer. The protections have to apply to everyone.

When my children were old enough to go to the park on their own, I warned them against using public toilets without having a friend with them. We all know that (however unlikely) these are places where people are more likely to be assaulted than in a cafe or shop, because they are private, out of the way and there are lockable doors. And that's when we assume that the Ladies will be populated by other women and any men in there are assumed to be up to no good. Allowing them legitimate access is going to make that situation worse.

Why do people fret about men's 'feelings' instead of about women's safety?

I don’t have a problem with a man deciding today I am going to be woman what I do have a problem with is that as a self identifying woman he uses women only spaces etc. people can say they identify as whatever they want but it doesn’t make it so

HousePlantQueen

Why does everyone in here fret about men putting on a frock and going into female toilets? As a woman, I can identify as male and go into the gents toilets. Next time I am in a long queue for the facilities, I may do so. Grim choice though.

Maybe because men are inherently stronger, taller and testosterone fuelled.

I am a 5’2” slight of build female, and I do not want to share female toilets, changing rooms and sports competitions with a male

Thank you Doodledog.... much more eloquent than myself!
Stepping away from this at the moment.. my blood pressure won't take any more!

I read a thread this week about this. You can be whoever you want to be. Call yourself whatever you like. Just don’t expect others to join in. I can call myself a tomato if I want. I don’t expect you to believe me or join in. Doesn’t mean you can abuse me of course. Respect goes both ways. Sadly with this gender challenging group they seemingly have no respect for others.

Just to be clear.. I have no problem with people identifying as whatever they choose. My problem is public funds being used to underpin these random choices and the consequent undermining of womens right to privacy and safety. All of which is being condoned by the current SNP Government.
And their survey results are NOT inclusive! What on earth are all these children who are 'identifying' as squirrels etc going to feel when they grow up and don't appear on the 'list'.. ?? ...as excluded as women by then probably...
And of course no men are having to compromise their spaces... they can go anywhere at any time...

What does 'behave as a woman' mean, David?

Whatever answer someone comes up with it will be different from how women behaved 100 years ago, and how they behave in other cultures. However far back you go, and however far away, women are female and men are male, however. Gender is not fixed, it is constructed. Sex is biological.

If a man wants to wear a dress, he can crack on, as far as I'm concerned, but wearing it doesn't give him a right to enter spaces reserved for women and girls. If we allow that, we have effectively erased the protection that feminists fought for, and have removed the right to privacy and dignity when naked, ill, restricted in movement or otherwise vulnerable for all women and girls. If anyone thinks that is ok, as mens' 'feelings' are more important than women's safety, I would ask them why they think these spaces were introduced in the first place?

We can all go to the pub, sit on a train, walk in the park wearing what we like and that's fine, but hospitals, changing rooms, prisons, care homes and DV hostels are different because they house vulnerable women and girls and should be off limits for men, however they 'present' themselves.

Why does everyone in here fret about men putting on a frock and going into female toilets? As a woman, I can identify as male and go into the gents toilets. Next time I am in a long queue for the facilities, I may do so. Grim choice though.

All these so called genders are just evidence of how narcissistic these people are. Why would anyone else be interested in someone's 'gender feels' on a daily basis?

Fleur20

David49

So it’s OK for a man to wake up one morning and decide “Im going to be female today” put on a dress and make up and behave as a woman.

According to the SNP ... yes , absolutely.. and he has free rein in womens toilets and changing rooms.... Oh! and we have to 'be kind' amd accommodate and understand

And that's exactly where I have a very big problem with it. I don't care how he dresses, wears makeup, does a stereotype caricature version of a woman, just as long as he stays in his lane. And that means no entering women only spaces, competitions, award areas. It's for males to accommodate these subsections of their sex, not females.