The party of taxation - Here we go hitting pensioners again!

Which government minister will utter the clichè "hard working families!".........so beloved of former chancellors? It always makes me think of Mum doing a 14 hour day in't mill, Dad slaving in a dreary office job like Bob Cratchit and the children consigned to earn a few shillings down the mine or shoved up a chimney by a merciless chimney sweep......

The junior doctors needed the pay increase, their pay had been held down for ten years and was massively reduced in value. There is no reason why doctors should have had to pay to reduce the overspend by governments by having less than fair pay rises.

I suspect that discussions had been taking place with the BMA long before the actual election. The pay rise over 2 years was a compromise.
Have we forgotten so quickly the spring of constant strikes and their effect on us that would have just continued without a deal. We cannot afford to lose more of our doctors.
All eyes on the budget to see what can be done now for the NHS with such limited means.

Isn't paying doctors so they are prepared to work part of 'sorting the NHS'? And how did this happen without any effort to negotiate? It was the previous lot who wouldn't negotiate - within days of taking power Wes Streeting met the doctors and negotiated a settlement.

I think you're right about being a nation of moaners though. Too many people want a free ride, and expect other people to work to pay for it.

problem is, it seems to me, we seem to be a country where we come down heavily on governments who fail to provide an adequate health/care services day after day: so many GN posts on difficulties getting help

but when it comes to paying for them, grumble again.

I wouldn’t mind quite so much if the money raised went into sorting the nhs rather than capitulating to resident doctors claims and giving a 22% pay increase without any effort to negotiate

Wyllow3

And.....yes, its fresh out of the Daily Mail headlines today.
Let's wait for the actual budget for those all so crucial details.

Generally speaking, the increases needed for the NHS and other facilities we all use, unless you have private health insurance, cannot be conjured out of the ether.

How do posters think we should raise the money?

OK Wyllow - we'll "conjure" the money out of the mega-rich. And yes indeed, they can afford it. Don't be taken in by the hand-wringing and the crocodile tears. For that matter let's squeeze the money out of the consortiums and hedge-fund set ups that run care homes for maximum profit and minimum care......

David49

MaizieD

growstuff

Incidentally, surely anybody who has the profit from shares taxed has bought the shares from taxed income. Pensioners aren't some special case.

Of course, the 'earned' money 'invested' isn't taxed. The only element that is taxed is the interest or dividend. Which hasn't been 'earned'.

It's a thoroughly fallacious argument...

On most investments the capital growth is taxed as well, those that invest on a personal level get taxed heavily, the big money makers are the corporate investors, they pay very little tax because they can manipulate the finances. The company can buy houses, boats, aeroplanes, whatever you want, the UK can’t change that because it’s international, the ultra wealthy are very hard to tax.

Jeff Bezos of Amazon pays very little tax, some years he pays none and there are plenty more like him.

But it's the growth which gets taxed not the original investment.

MaizieD

growstuff

Incidentally, surely anybody who has the profit from shares taxed has bought the shares from taxed income. Pensioners aren't some special case.

Of course, the 'earned' money 'invested' isn't taxed. The only element that is taxed is the interest or dividend. Which hasn't been 'earned'.

It's a thoroughly fallacious argument...

On most investments the capital growth is taxed as well, those that invest on a personal level get taxed heavily, the big money makers are the corporate investors, they pay very little tax because they can manipulate the finances. The company can buy houses, boats, aeroplanes, whatever you want, the UK can’t change that because it’s international, the ultra wealthy are very hard to tax.

Jeff Bezos of Amazon pays very little tax, some years he pays none and there are plenty more like him.

growstuff

Incidentally, surely anybody who has the profit from shares taxed has bought the shares from taxed income. Pensioners aren't some special case.

Of course, the 'earned' money 'invested' isn't taxed. The only element that is taxed is the interest or dividend. Which hasn't been 'earned'.

It's a thoroughly fallacious argument...

Incidentally, surely anybody who has the profit from shares taxed has bought the shares from taxed income. Pensioners aren't some special case.

I agree with you Maizie and Doodledog.

I disagree, but life is too short 😄Strictly is on and I need a cuppa. leave you to it.

And also, AFAIK, nothing is being targeted at pensioners. Any policies will apply across the board.

First of all, I’m not the OP, second I think that she has a point about pensioners who have already paid tax having money from shares taxed again.

She doesn't have a point at all. Using her reasoning we shouldn't be paying VAT at all because we are paying for purchases out of already taxed income.

Income tax is not the only tax on our money.

First of all, I’m not the OP, second I think that she has a point about pensioners who have already paid tax having money from shares taxed again.We want people to save for themselves surely. We don’t know what will happen in the Budget but things are always leaked on purpose before it happens.
There does seem to be quite a bit of pensioner bashing going on, both from our new government and from posters on here.

growstuff

Oreo

No reason at all, just saying that they do.Income tax on your private pension or any income stream is already being paid by pensioners.There are some who would like them also to pay NI as well, whenever these kind of discussions come up on forums.

Ah well! I'm baffled. I just don't understand the OP about pensioners about to be "hit" again.

I don't understand it either, growstuff.

I live mostly on (taxed) pension, and also pay both tax and NI on everything I earn. It is sometimes irritating, as I don't earn enough to pay tax without the pension, so someone doing the same job as me who does not get a pension will get 20% more if they also pay NI, and a lot more if they don't. My NI contributions don't even go towards my pension as I have the full number of years, some of which I paid for separately because of being opted out. In total I have 47 years of NI, plus six years of voluntary contributions. I think that counts as paying my dues, but I accept that all income is taxed.

I agree with mumofmadboys when she says Everyone needs to contribute to improve the country's finances for all and to have better public services and the vulnerable in our society better cared for such as children in care, children with additional needs, prisoners, homeless etc. I am prepared to lower my standard of living if I feel it helps the vulnerable, but I can see no reason at all why 'working people' (and I count myself as such) should be the ones to pay more and more tax , whatever their age, when those who don't work pay less. How is that the fairest way?

Also, I've never really understood the argument that those who don't pay income tax still pay tax such as VAT. If they are spending money someone else has earned it is still one salary that is being spent, regardless of who goes to the shops.

Oreo

No reason at all, just saying that they do.Income tax on your private pension or any income stream is already being paid by pensioners.There are some who would like them also to pay NI as well, whenever these kind of discussions come up on forums.

Ah well! I'm baffled. I just don't understand the OP about pensioners about to be "hit" again.

No reason at all, just saying that they do.Income tax on your private pension or any income stream is already being paid by pensioners.There are some who would like them also to pay NI as well, whenever these kind of discussions come up on forums.

Oreo

Ok, they don’t pay NI then, but they do pay income tax if working, and on their private pensions.
If they have an income stream from owning and letting property then that would be taxed too.

Why shouldn't it be?

Everybody who has an income stream from owning and letting property pays tax (unless they have a clever accountant), so why should pensioners be an exception?

Ok, they don’t pay NI then, but they do pay income tax if working, and on their private pensions.
If they have an income stream from owning and letting property then that would be taxed too.

Dinahmo

The dividend allowance was reduced to £500 for 2024/25 from £1000 for 2023/24 so that should bring in more tax. However, why should dividend income be taxed at the basic rate of 8.75% compared to the 20% rate used on other income.

Furthermore, why should people who take in a lodger be able to claim rent a room relief of £7,500?

I have seen the 'double taxation' argument used in defence of the low rate on dividend income.

Firstly, as the OP used it that investments were made with already taxed income, so why should it be taxed again? And secondly, that company profits, out of which dividends are paid, have already been taxed, so why tax the dividend again?

I don't see that either argument is valid. Income tax, as I keep repeating, is not the only tax. Everything we purchase that has VAT on it is just another form of 'double taxation'.

One could, equally, turn the argument round and ask why is VAT 20% when other 'double taxes' are only 8.75%? [hmm}

Oreo

mumofmadboys

Everyone needs to contribute to improve the country's finances for all and to have better public services and the vulnerable in our society better cared for such as children in care, children with additional needs, prisoners, homeless etc. I am prepared to lower my standard of living if I feel it helps the vulnerable.

That’s what hiking the income tax would have done.They were foolish to rule that out in their eagerness to get into power.
They would have won anyway and could have simply said they would review taxation once they formed a government.

I suspect Labour does regret its promise about income tax. However, even a few months before the election, I don't think anybody really forecast how big their majority would be. They were trying to reassure the "just about managing" and middle income voters that the headline income tax figure wouldn't increase.

Oreo

I’m not a pensioner as yet so have no skin in the game about what pensioners should have to pay, but let me say this, that they have worked and paid into the system during their lives and if still working then are still paying income tax and NI.
For those older pensioners who aren’t working either retired or unable to work, if they have any kind of pension then they will continue to pay tax on that ( private pension) and for those who just have a State pension and maybe a tiny amount coming in so no tax, then that’s fair enough, they don’t earn much and aren’t taking any benefits from the system.
Why should non working pensioners have to pay any more?

Firstly, pensioners don't pay NI.

Secondly, I don't understand why the argument about non-working pensioners is relevant. They are no different from anybody who has an income from property or shares of any age. Their age isn't relevant.

Wyllow3

And.....yes, its fresh out of the Daily Mail headlines today.
Let's wait for the actual budget for those all so crucial details.

Generally speaking, the increases needed for the NHS and other facilities we all use, unless you have private health insurance, cannot be conjured out of the ether.

How do posters think we should raise the money?

By not spending on a whole bunch of things, and part things, that are spent on at present.

Will write a list when I want to.

Sometimes money can be obtained, by not spending on certain things.
It certainly does not always mean, raising taxes.

mumofmadboys

Everyone needs to contribute to improve the country's finances for all and to have better public services and the vulnerable in our society better cared for such as children in care, children with additional needs, prisoners, homeless etc. I am prepared to lower my standard of living if I feel it helps the vulnerable.

That’s what hiking the income tax would have done.They were foolish to rule that out in their eagerness to get into power.
They would have won anyway and could have simply said they would review taxation once they formed a government.