Tuition fees are to be increased.

Sarnia

Allira

Freya5

Indigo8

I agree Allira. We need fewer degree courses too.
For instance why do nursing and fine art have to be a degree courses?

If you don't agree with degree courses,perhaps look up to see why it's needed and what is involved.

We have nurses in the family, SRN, one with a degree and another with a Masters.

I agree that some nursing is very technical these days but disagree that all nurses need a degree.

The midwives and nurses I worked with would agree with you. They thought there was too much time spent in university and not enough working on the wards and being hands on with a qualified member of the nursing staff.

Nursing 2000 seemed to be a good initiative, a combination of a university course and hands-on experience; I'm not sure why it was abandoned.

Lydie45

When my husband was in hospital a older nurse was doing some procedure on him and told us that after that day she would no longer be able to do it as she ‘wasn’t qualified’ to do this as she did not have a degree and needed to get one. She told us she wouldn’t bother and was leaving. An excellent nurse lost to the profession.

When i was a student, the teacher whose class I was in for teaching practice had the same issue. Yes, she was good at her job, but no, she didn’t have a degree or a PGCE. So she had the choice of getting one or leaving.

When my husband was in hospital a older nurse was doing some procedure on him and told us that after that day she would no longer be able to do it as she ‘wasn’t qualified’ to do this as she did not have a degree and needed to get one. She told us she wouldn’t bother and was leaving. An excellent nurse lost to the profession.

Allira

Freya5

Indigo8

I agree Allira. We need fewer degree courses too.
For instance why do nursing and fine art have to be a degree courses?

If you don't agree with degree courses,perhaps look up to see why it's needed and what is involved.

We have nurses in the family, SRN, one with a degree and another with a Masters.

I agree that some nursing is very technical these days but disagree that all nurses need a degree.

The midwives and nurses I worked with would agree with you. They thought there was too much time spent in university and not enough working on the wards and being hands on with a qualified member of the nursing staff.

GreyKnitter

I guess everything has gone up so why not university fees. Inflation hits everything.

The universities have said they need approx £12.000 per student to keep current levels of student/teacher standards, to keep up to date with lab and computer equipment, and so on. The small rise will help a little.

It does seem to me we need alternatives with vocational aims but can they actually be delivered more cheaply? There's a lot of thinking and planning to be done here that cant happen quickly.

David49

The old system SRNs were the highly trained lead nurses, backed up by SENs - State Enrolled Nurses they all started on the wards and then gained further qualifications over the years. Auxiliaries helped out with general patient care.

Nurses became degree only, backed up by Clinical Support Workers, anyone can be a CSW initial trading is brief and pay low, as with other care workers, until you get further qualifications.

In between the two schemes, SRN and degree only, was Project 2000 where students attended university as well as having work placements.
There were no tuition fees then and students were paid a bursary to support their living and training costs during the course.

Project 2000 student nurses studied for 3 years, splitting the time between class based learning, and practical placements

The old system SRNs were the highly trained lead nurses, backed up by SENs - State Enrolled Nurses they all started on the wards and then gained further qualifications over the years. Auxiliaries helped out with general patient care.

Nurses became degree only, backed up by Clinical Support Workers, anyone can be a CSW initial trading is brief and pay low, as with other care workers, until you get further qualifications.

Are they now the healthcare assistants?

I had no idea who was who in hospital, only who was kinder and more caring.

Whatever happened to nursing auxiliaries? They did the donkey work ,bed changesetc while the nurses…nursed.I remember spending weeks in a pre natal ward where the auxiliaries were a joy ,maybe they could bring them back?

I guess everything has gone up so why not university fees. Inflation hits everything.

Allira

We need more apprenticeships.

I agree.
We need more joined up thinking too. Especially in practical subjects.
For example, it's bonkers that something like GCSE Food and Technology doesn't give 16 year olds a Level 1 NVQ when they have already covered that and more in their work on Food Prep and Cooking.

growstuff
I cut and pasted that from the Mygov Scot website. If you don’t believe them, not my problem.
www.mygov.scot/tuition-fees#:~:text=All%20universities%20charge%20tuition%20fees,fees%20to%20the%20university%20yourself.

Mollygo

From MYGOVSCOT
All universities charge tuition fees for their courses. You can get help to pay these tuition fees if you're studying an undergraduate course or certain postgraduate courses.

You do not have to pay tuition fees to the university yourself. Instead:

You can apply for government funding to pay your fees.
The government funding agency you applied to pays the university on your behalf.
In the UK, the government funding agency you apply to depends on which country you normally live in.

^If you normally live in Scotland, you'll apply to the Student Awards Agency Scotland (SAAS). SAAS can cover your tuition – whether you choose to study in Scotland or elsewhere in the UK.^

But Scottish students do pay if they study in other parts of the UK. It's a bit of a gripe to them because the number of Scottish students at Scottish universities is capped, so many of them do end up applying to universities outside Scotland. the Scottish universities themselves would rather accept some students from outside Scotland to boost their income.

vintageclassics I agree with you to an extent. I know why the polytechnics were turned into universities. The idea was to give them parity of status with the older universities. Unfortunately, they also lost their distinctive identity, as they tried to compete with the traditional universities, which was a great shame.

I'm glad you mentioned apprenticeships linked to higher education because I don't think those courses are what people mean when they talk about an increase in apprenticeships. There is a chronic shortage of Level 4 apprenticeships linking higher education and industry. Nevertheless, courses such as those do need funding. They also require minimum educational standards. I'm not sure how they would be funded. Would the students still need to take out loans or would employers pay the fees? Industry itself would need to expand its training capacity, which would cost money.

grandtanteJE65

I thought Scottish universities had abolished tution fees years ago!

Why do so many of you on Gransnet assume that what applies in England applies in the entire UK?

Don't include me in so many of you.

I said:
This could be 25 years, 30 years, age 65, depending on when the loan was taken out and which part of the UK.

Students from elsewhere are charged tuition fees at Scottish universities.

From MYGOVSCOT
All universities charge tuition fees for their courses. You can get help to pay these tuition fees if you're studying an undergraduate course or certain postgraduate courses.

You do not have to pay tuition fees to the university yourself. Instead:

You can apply for government funding to pay your fees.
The government funding agency you applied to pays the university on your behalf.
In the UK, the government funding agency you apply to depends on which country you normally live in.

If you normally live in Scotland, you'll apply to the Student Awards Agency Scotland (SAAS). SAAS can cover your tuition – whether you choose to study in Scotland or elsewhere in the UK.

grandtanteJE65

I thought Scottish universities had abolished tution fees years ago!

Why do so many of you on Gransnet assume that what applies in England applies in the entire UK?

I don't assume that.

Scottish universities have abolished fees for Scottish students. Others still have to pay, as do Scottish students studying outside Scotland.

I worked in the University sector for 30 years (effectively for all of them in the UK) IMO there are (and have been for quite a while) too many Uni's (in 1992/3 many Polytechnics became Universities) and there is now a shortage of apprenticeships linked to Further Education or Uni's. Universities have had a huge shortfall in the pension scheme which has increased cost on the sector which was partially funded by overseas students which they no longer have. The upkeep of buildings must be enormous and staff costs are probably the biggest bill they have (an increase in NI contributions won't have helped). I am also sure many degrees could be effectively delivered in 2 years rather than 3 saving students a whole year of costs (fees, accommodation, food etc) - I think an increase in fees is overdue and there are many alternative careers out there for those who choose not to have student debt

I thought Scottish universities had abolished tution fees years ago!

Why do so many of you on Gransnet assume that what applies in England applies in the entire UK?

growstuff

Allira

growstuff

mae13

There must be a better way. It's almost depressing to think that people leaving university will probably be saddled with a sizeable debt into middle-agevand beyond, because it's quite a truism that it's very easy to get into debt and very hard to get out of it.

You can have a meticulously worked out plan to pay it back on schedule, as long as your employment goals come to fruition, but anything can suddenly drive a plan into the buffers: long term illness, unemployment, redundancy, finding out the hard way that your degree isn't what employers are looking for etc, etc.

But it's not like other debts. Long-term illness and unemployment mean that no repayments need to be made during that period. Yes, the debt will continue to accrue interest, but (unlike other debts), it will be written off at the end of 35 years. Repayments are related to income, so it's actually more like an extra tax than a debt repayment.

The rules over the years regarding repayments have varied so much thst it's often difficult to work out. Presumably, if the whole lot is not paid off at the end of the term then the rest is written off. This could be 25 years, 30 years, age 65, depending on when the loan was taken out and which part of the UK.

With income tax, NI, student loan repayments, no wonder some young people find it impossible to buy a property as not all graduate jobs are highly paid.

The rules have changed for different year groups, but students know when they take out loans what the terms are and those haven't changed.

The loans students are currently taking out will be paid off after 35 years. My son's loans will be written off after 30 years, while my daughter's loans will be written off after 25 years. They knew at the beginning when they'd be written off.

The length of time graduates will have before their loans are written off matters more to the graduates than the actual cost of the courses.

students know when they take out loans what the terms are and those haven't changed.

That statement is fairly obvious. I did say it was dependent on when the loan was taken out.
It doesn't, however, change the fact that the terms have changed more than once over the years.

The more the loans go up, the fewer students will apply and the less money will be available to universities.

More young people will be seeking apprenticeships and applying to firms and institutions which offer employment and the chance to take a degree or other qualifications at the same time.

knspol

I wonder why this wasn't announced in the budget? There was also an announcement yesterday re extra money towards stopping the boat traffickers another thing not mentioned in the budget.

I can understand why the additional funding for the smashing the boat gangs wasn’t announced until the big conference yesterday, presumably it had to be endorsed by all parties, and have its launch then.
I was surprised tuition fees changes weren’t announced in the budget, but when I looked back at previous budgets - sometimes it is announced in the budget, sometimes at a different time, for a reason that’s beyond me.

Exactly cc ... big drop before the VAT announcement, which just shows it isn't the most important factor.

Tricky one, they are part public/charity but have to run on a business model in terms of making ends meet. Just checked a list of salaries and there are bizarre differences.

I wonder why this wasn't announced in the budget? There was also an announcement yesterday re extra money towards stopping the boat traffickers another thing not mentioned in the budget.

Greenfinch

I agree with you Indigo8. My DGD is a very good artist but would seriously struggle with a Fine Arts degree. What can she do? She has been told that there are very few apprenticeships in Art.

There are many ways in which artists can show their work, Open Studios being a good start. Admittedly many of the well known artists around now went to Art School (David Hockney being a good example) but it's not necessary for everyone.