Assisted dying bill

The issue for me is being sure that my choice doesn't alter over time.

I don't want something I may have been sure on five years ago to still be considered as my choice, without being able to check.

MissInterpreted

theworriedwell

Of course we already have choice, suicide has been legal for years.

We all know it's not quite as simple as that though.

But in fact we do have a choice. We don't have a choice to involve anyone else.

theworriedwell

Of course we already have choice, suicide has been legal for years.

We don't access to the drugs that would allow us to go easily though. They are prescription drugs. And I don't fancy drinking drain cleaner or hanging myself or cutting my wrist or traumatising a train driver by jumping in front of a train.

theworriedwell

Of course we already have choice, suicide has been legal for years.

We all know it's not quite as simple as that though.

Of course we already have choice, suicide has been legal for years.

theworriedwell

Fleurpepper

Yes, it is a difficult issue- very complex indeed. Which is why Switzerland has not gone that route. And which is why THIS IS NOT AT ALL IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM the plan for the new Bill in the UK.

I know it isn't but I don't think that is well understood. I've seen so many posts, on here and elsewhere, with people referencing years of suffering with dementia who don't seem to realise this bill won't help in that situation.

I do realise that, actually. I understand why some people are concerned - this is always going to be a very divisive issue, but for me personally, it comes down to the same argument in the abortion debate. My body - my choice.

Fleurpepper

Yes, it is a difficult issue- very complex indeed. Which is why Switzerland has not gone that route. And which is why THIS IS NOT AT ALL IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM the plan for the new Bill in the UK.

I know it isn't but I don't think that is well understood. I've seen so many posts, on here and elsewhere, with people referencing years of suffering with dementia who don't seem to realise this bill won't help in that situation.

Yes, it is a difficult issue- very complex indeed. Which is why Switzerland has not gone that route. And which is why THIS IS NOT AT ALL IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM the plan for the new Bill in the UK.

Fleurpepper

theworriedwell

Koalama

My mums just died after 7 long years of dementia, this bill is a must and any one who says different needs to, live my mums and our life over the last few weeks. Your mind would definitely be changed then.

I'm sorry for your loss and what you've been through but this bill would not have applied to your mother as I understand it. She wouldn't have had a life expectancy of under 6 months when she still had capacity, it won't help people like your mother unless I've misunderstood it.

Sadly, this is the case. And I am sorry you had to go through this as we did with our massively intelligent MIL.

In Switzerland, people with a diagnosis of Alzheimers or Dementia, can still make the decision to go early, whilst they, despite diagnosis, still have sufficient ability to make it clear that this is what they want. But they have to make the decision early, before it is too late. This is what both DH and myself have decided is what we would do. Easier said than done though!

Holland seems to be the only country where you can make very clear advanced directive, that in the case of Alzheimers or Dementia, if the capacity to decide for oneself, as long as the person, whilst fully compos mentis still, clearly requests this in the advanced directives, and confirmed with doctor at the time.

I think this is a difficult issue. I currently have LPA for a relative in her 90s. She was a somewhat difficult character and not a very happy person. When she first went into a dementia care home she was very unhappy, it was clear to anyone but here we are 8 years later and she is one of the lucky ones with dementia who seems happy, she joins in with things like singing and art that she would have totally rejected in the past. If she had made the advanced decision she would have died an unhappy person, currently she is happier than I've known her although physically she is deteriorating and who knows what the very end will be like.

I have agreed a DNR for her as I don't think it is likely to be successful and is likely to be unpleasant but I feel the weight of the decisions.

theworriedwell

Koalama

My mums just died after 7 long years of dementia, this bill is a must and any one who says different needs to, live my mums and our life over the last few weeks. Your mind would definitely be changed then.

I'm sorry for your loss and what you've been through but this bill would not have applied to your mother as I understand it. She wouldn't have had a life expectancy of under 6 months when she still had capacity, it won't help people like your mother unless I've misunderstood it.

Sadly, this is the case. And I am sorry you had to go through this as we did with our massively intelligent MIL.

In Switzerland, people with a diagnosis of Alzheimers or Dementia, can still make the decision to go early, whilst they, despite diagnosis, still have sufficient ability to make it clear that this is what they want. But they have to make the decision early, before it is too late. This is what both DH and myself have decided is what we would do. Easier said than done though!

Holland seems to be the only country where you can make very clear advanced directive, that in the case of Alzheimers or Dementia, if the capacity to decide for oneself, as long as the person, whilst fully compos mentis still, clearly requests this in the advanced directives, and confirmed with doctor at the time.

I hope this bill goes through,but doubt it will sadly.
Having seen too many people suffer on the road to death it would be good to have the option to end it if the person so wished.
I’m not afraid of death, I’m afraid of the road to death which can be awful,it can be ok too but we don’t know which one we’ll be given.
No one would have to take the option of assisted death but it would help many people by taking away the fear of death which is for many people very real.

Whiff

Babs my dad would have wanted assisted dieing as he hated what he had become and hated seeing mom watching him die .

Before mom's dementia killed her but her body lived on ..While she still.coukd make decisions and knew she was losing herself she did say I'm going to throw myself down the stairs and die . I pointed out it probably wouldn't kill her just break some bones so she decided not to do it. But she did talk about wanting to die before she forgot everything. If she had asked me to give her enough tablets to do it I would have .

When my husband was terminal we talked about him dieing and told him if the pain got to bad I would help him die both the children knew about this and agreed . He just wanted to get to his 47th so we got them there . He died 4 days later from the cancer . But I had to tell him to stop fighting as even on full oxygen he could breath . Told him we will be ok. He died few minutes later.

I know I don't want an extended life if I lose the quality . And do not want my daughter to go through what I went through especially with my mom . I decided a long time ago if I lost my quality of life due to cancer or was diagnosed with dementia or Alzheimer's to end my life . Before I destroyed my daughter.

What I went through with my mom took me a year to remember her as she was before the dementia killed her mind and the violence took over. But it was out of fear mom didn't know who she was ,where or who I was she thought I was her mom .

Life without quality isn't living . But I know people will disagree but I wonder how many people have looked after people with life ending conditions by themselves 24/7 for years .

💯 agree 🫂

Koalama

My mums just died after 7 long years of dementia, this bill is a must and any one who says different needs to, live my mums and our life over the last few weeks. Your mind would definitely be changed then.

I'm sorry for your loss and what you've been through but this bill would not have applied to your mother as I understand it. She wouldn't have had a life expectancy of under 6 months when she still had capacity, it won't help people like your mother unless I've misunderstood it.

schnoodlelove, your link highlights a situation that would never arise with this new Bill, and certainly could not happen in other countries where Assisted Suicide is legal. That is the whole point- the potion is pre-prepared and an anti-emetic given about 30 mins before. In the case of Pegasos in Switzerland, their method consists of an intravenous drip, which is triggered by the person, and acts immediately, without the bitter drink.

This is total fearmongering in the extreme. Despite being a member of one of the Swiss organisations and with excellent knowledge of Pegasos, not a single case as you describe, in over half a century.

My mums just died after 7 long years of dementia, this bill is a must and any one who says different needs to, live my mums and our life over the last few weeks. Your mind would definitely be changed then.

Kalm

Just because the narrative of this discussion is somehow portrayed as compassionate liberal because Ester Rantzen supports it does not mean it is right.

Equally, it does not make it wrong. In fact, it doesn't make it anything. ER is the current 'mouthpiece' for this movement, but there were others before her and, if the bill fails, there will be others after. It is not about Esther Rantzen, she is the catalyst.

It's quite right to be concerned about the so-called 'safeguards' that would be put in place to prevent any kind of abuse of this option because many of our legitimate / legal systems, processes, and pathways - especially where health-care and social-care are concerned - fail us.

However, there is a principle involved in this - forgetting the concerns people have for a moment - no-one should be forced to suffer because of another's ideological, philosophical or religious beliefs, in the same way that no doctor or any other person should be forced to be a part of the process of ending another's life it it is against those ideological or religious beliefs.

Equally, no-one from any religious demographic has the right to decide for another person in that same religious demographic.

If a bill is passed - it has to be available to every British citizen regardless of their ethnicity or religion, in the same way that every British citizen has to obey the law - or be protected by it.

The argument about safeguarding, and the possibility of abuse of this proposed law - if it becomes one - is quite separate from the principle of it applying to all equally.

Totally agree with this ....who wants to be left entirely alone, no family, no care, no help, in agony and suffering !!!! NOT ME ....My only disappointment is the 6 months to live rule ...many people are suffering from neurological diseases that are awful to have...there I no way I want to suffer as I watched my late husband do .....(he was however the opposite ...he desperately wanted to live, which in fact is probably worse ..as he developed vascular dementia, cancer of the oesophogus, inability to walk and in desperation to get out of bed, fell out despite us having a hospital bed at home ...in the end, after washing three piles of bedding every day, being sworn at, watching him thump the doctor when she visited (we lived in France) ...extremely aggressive, refusing outside help ..I had to put him into a care home which was excellent they could not have been more helpful ...even grabbing anyone who spoke English to go and chat to him ...it was awful, and I would have no one to look after me ...no social care, no palliative care, hospices closing ...how awful to sit alone just waiting to die....I looked at the BMA rules as they stood for euthanasia ......I looked at Dignitas (£15,000) ...care homes IF there are any left, £8,000 a month ...money from the sale of my home would only keep me for about one year ! ...disappointed the UK does not have something in place like Canada, Switzerland and many other places {angry}

That link is chilling. The fantasy of the perfect death blown out of the water.

I've expressed my reservations on other threads based on the truly horrific experience if my beautiful dog suffering a painful terrifying death. It seemed like she had some terrible reaction to the drugs.

Religion need not be a consideration in the debate, unless the person holds views which prohibit the ending of life, including their own.

Then it is a matter of making it known, and written up, that under no circumstances whatsoever is assisted dying to be part of their end of life plan.

schnoodlelove

Fleurpepper: How can assisted dying go wrong if properly done? Can you give any links to any real example?

unherd.com/2024/11/the-painful-truth-about-assisted-suicide/

And this is why, Not relevant to the UK.

"When it comes to the physical stuff doctors depend on, assisted suicide and the death penalty are entwined. In the early 2010s, European companies launched tough new restrictions on the export of certain drugs to the US because the drugs were being used for capital punishment. That explains the emergence of individual suppliers such as Mehdi Alavi. But these small-scale alternatives were soon banned by American courts too. US pharma companies also stopped making the drugs used in assisted suicide — possibly because there are few other medical uses for them."

Fleurpepper: How can assisted dying go wrong if properly done? Can you give any links to any real example?

unherd.com/2024/11/the-painful-truth-about-assisted-suicide/

Yup, I agree.

IOMGran

CariadAgain, I quite agree with you. Religious mores should be not inflicted on people who don't subscribe. Cheek of them and that goes for the poster above too. I am an equal opportunity religion disliker!

LOL LOL LOL LOL - I'm an equal opportunity religion "Be whatever the heck you please - but don't inflict it on anyone else that doesn't think the same way as you - especially if it's a different way of thinking to our British ways". You'd be astonished just what different forms of "worship" I've attended - all the way from Sikh to pagan in the woods (and I thoroughly enjoyed the Sikh service actually - nice music and a nice meal with the community afterwards = what's not to like? You'd probably think the way I think in that respect is a bit "wierd and wonderful" - but it's my "wierd and wonderful" and not other peoples and "One mans meat is another mans poison".

I'd run my country the way I ran my house back when I took lodgers in basically - I'm a vegetarian (but I'm not going to stop you cooking up meat for yourself in my kitchen), I'm very "liberal" re religion (but when the church you say you're looking for sounds like an evangelical Christian one = I'll tell you where there's one that sounds just like you're describing and just don't expect me to visit it with you). You're a man from a Middle Eastern country lodging in my house - tough....you're in Britain and me doing your housework is not part of the deal..I don't care what you do in your own country (but in our country I'm a person and not a woman iyswim and I'm not your servant included in the rent I charge you).

Rosie51

It would appear IOMGran that you don't care the same about the people, old and young, who would not be included under this bill, a much greater number. Once it's in place there will be even less impetus to pour money into alternative end of life care.
I want better end of life care that would include being able to have even potentially lethal doses of pain medication if that's what is needed and wanted. Even there you have the situation of how do you treat those without mental capacity? Do you just shrug your shoulders and say 'what a shame'? There really are no easy answers. This bill may address some issues, but I still say it will be open to abuse and misuse.

How do you think this will work? It's basically assisted dying. Your inconsistency is baffling.

"I want better end of life care that would include being able to have even potentially lethal doses of pain medication if that's what is needed and wanted. "

It would appear IOMGran that you don't care the same about the people, old and young, who would not be included under this bill, a much greater number. Once it's in place there will be even less impetus to pour money into alternative end of life care.
I want better end of life care that would include being able to have even potentially lethal doses of pain medication if that's what is needed and wanted. Even there you have the situation of how do you treat those without mental capacity? Do you just shrug your shoulders and say 'what a shame'? There really are no easy answers. This bill may address some issues, but I still say it will be open to abuse and misuse.