Assisted dying bill

GrannyGravy13

I can only speak from a point of personal experience, our relatives have had excellent palliative/end of life care, nobody asked to die , in fact the opposite they clung to every minute, second of their lives despite being extremely ill.

I have doubts regarding this Bill, it has been rushed through by the PM on what seems like a promise to a celebrity (Esther Rantzen).

I have been reading about the situation in Canada, it raises more questions than answers.

My mother had a terrible death despite palliative care as the morphine required to stop the pain would have killed her and was therefore illegal. The reality of bone cancer in the spine. I saw another couple of friends die peacefully and not in pain. Respectfully if you have not seen the limits of palliative care you should refrain from opining. I welcome this very focussed bill, and I hope our Isle of Man bill passes too. I also hope I don't need to use the option, but knowing I could stop the pain would make death better.

That would include a fair few who are working to preserve life too, I'm afraid.

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Elz57

If I’m correct this bill only applies to Wales and England I’m from Scotland and pray that Scotland passes a bill to help a soul go without pain and their dignity in tack.

The Scottish Bill is now more or less permanently shelved as Neil Grey, SNP health minister, has questioned whether it's within devolved jurisdiction. (Same unscrupulous guy who claims expenses for getting chauffeured football matches). If it's passed in rUK then Holyrood may be able to follow suit/revive their bill.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g5w299npjo.amp

I have campaigned for this Bill for seven years and will be outside the HofP on 29th with my placard. I agree on safeguards but this Bill does not go far enough. It's about an individuals right to choose. If you want to continue living it's your choice. In an ideal world there would be brilliant palliative care but currently there isn't. I will hasten my death as soon as I feel my quality of life has gone. It is my right to choose

Self delivery is possible but it is still illegal to help someone to commit suicide.

When is becomes legal for a doctor to assist you to die the doctor will be able to give you enough pain killer to stop your agony even if the high dosage kill you. BUT only if you give permission for the lethal dose.

If I’m correct this bill only applies to Wales and England I’m from Scotland and pray that Scotland passes a bill to help a soul go without pain and their dignity in tack.

My darling Dad was in a hospice for the last weeks of his life and they were incapable of controlling his pain, he was begging my Mum and I to end it for him, he said he would have done it for us if the circumstances were switched. I have been haunted by it for the last 20 years as I let him down by not helping him.
We are humans with the ability to make our own life or death choices, don’t rob us of that.

Magr

No one will be forced to do this, despite those who are planting this fear. Like abortion, should be a matter of personal choice and autonomy

People were placed on The Liverpool Pathway without being aware, and DNR has been put onto people's medical notes without having been discussed, so I wouldn't be too sure.

I've got a long term medical problem which could lead to a long deterioration of mind and body. This bill will not help me but I hope it goes through to help others who are suffering. My only hope is getting to Dignitas.

No one will be forced to do this, despite those who are planting this fear. Like abortion, should be a matter of personal choice and autonomy

Kalm

Having witnessed the death of both parents this is not an easy subject.
For many Muslims, and similarly for Jews, the belief in a predetermined time of death is a profound aspect of faith. The story of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and the Angel of Death (Malaik ul mawt) underscores the significance of divine will and the eternal afterlife in Islam. the angel MuM asked the prophet's permission to extract his soul, the prophet asked whether this option will be available to his ascendants, the reply was n the negative.
This belief system provides comfort and a framework for understanding life's trials and the suffering of loved ones, those who suffer pain are martyrs.
I don't trust the state to decide when people should die. Historical events like the thalidomide tragedy and the contaminated blood scandal have removed trust in governmental oversight....Or those in palliative care where hospices are under-funded. Generally speaking not everyone is rational as politicians believe, dysfunctional families are likely to put pressure on the elderly to go down the AD route. There are many cases where people have survived. Anecdotally we had a relative who was told in 1936 he didn't have long in Kashmir, he died .....in 1992 in Birmingham !
The challenges in palliative care, especially for Muslims, highlight significant gaps in the current healthcare system. Concerns about cleanliness, dignity, halal food, and prayer time are crucial for providing culturally competent care. The lack of understanding and bureaucratic hurdles exacerbate these difficulties
Just because the narrative of this discussion is somehow portrayed as compassionate liberal because Ester Rantzen supports it does not mean it is right.

Those of us who do not subscribe to a religion of any kind should not be controlled by the beliefs of those who do.

The choice is skewed, though, surely?
It can only be a fair choice when a comfortable but slower, "natural" death is on offer, compared to a pain free fast dispatch as and when needed.

I saw my doctor once to ask him how heart failure works as my dad had a heart attack and was in hospital with heart failure. My GP then (years ago) told me it was a very distressing condition. He said he normally lays them down and injects morphine!!
I've since learned that this would hasten death.
But my dad recovered from the heart attack and lived another 7 years. So I'm glad he wasn't my dad's doctor.
This is what has always worried me about assisted dying but in definitely terminal disease I do agree with it.
My sister had heart attack and pneumonia last year. The family was called in at 3am to say goodbye. Next day she was off the ventilation and sat up in bed drinking a mug of tea. You just can't tell if it's definitely terminal with some conditions.

There is a real risk that MPs will kick this Bill out on the grounds that palliative care is not adequate so people would opt for assisted dying. What they are effectively saying is they prefer some people endure very painful, lingering deaths rather than immediately funding and organising palliative care so there is an equitable choice. Disgraceful in my opinion. If this Bill is killed there is no hope it could return for years and so many people would be denied a pain free death.

Thank you.
I'm feeling better this week, thankfully.

MissA

As long as I can squeeze a little bit of enjoyment, I'd stick around.

Last couple of weeks, though, I'd have jumped into a suicide pod in the blink of an eye.

Mu life is hugely reduced from what it was, but I'm adaptable,as are most,when it comes down to it.

I’ve witnessed a few die a lingering death due to a stroke or cancer and it’s not for me, my father had the best end of life, good health at 85, he called me at 7am his sister called in a 8.30 he had a heart attack and gone.

That’s how I want to go, if I can’t enjoy life, they can switch me off any time. I want that choice.

I am also on the fence, it’s an extremely uncomfortable position to be in.

If I had more faith in the safety procedures and protocols I maybe could be in favour of assisted death, unfortunately these bills start out in good faith (Canada I am looking at you) but take a nasty turn.

Galaxy I dont believe the reassurances. They put inappropriate DNR s on people with learning disabilities during covid.

That's something I will never forgive them for. My grandson would have been in that situation.

In the past (I hope it is firmly 'in the past' ) people born with Down syndrome were denied heart surgery because they were Down's? Doctors are not immune from making value judgements on lives.

For me, it makes sense to exercise extreme caution given the failings (just the ones that come to light) in policies,procedures,practices and laws around keeping the vulnerable safe.

I think I’m on the fence too MissA and Dickens.
My fear is that this will be passed into law, with many assurances and safeguards, but these will in time become watered down and misinterpreted.

Kalm

Choice is a fallacy, Muslims might want the choice for 4 wives....allowable in Islam....and the "white right" likely to be apoplectic at the mere suggestion. The choice also exists to drink and smoke ourselves to death. The Quran also says to have saved one life is to have saved humanity. I don't believe people understand choice. Margaret Thatcher's election made me understand that fact. More recently Brexit and Trump - All under the illusion of choice. Knowing many people in the health professions, one thing is clear people are not rational. Even educated families can be dysfunctional
Even getting people to take regular medication outside of a hospital setting is difficult. Elderly people are treated abominably anyway and government safeguards don't work. Getting a doctor out for my parents years ago was a nightmare, only until the end did visits take place. That was also because muslims are not allowed a post mortem.

Kalm- you have expressed my feelings exactly here.

I will also add that reading some of these posts makes me feel we certainly shouldn't be supporting this bill.

I am glad it is down to the MPs moral choices, whether or not they are swayed by letters either way.

It isn't a perfect system but we don't live in a perfect world, despite people thinking that you can somehow make death a kind of 'perfect' experience by handing them a pill.

Kalm

With respect I am saying the "choice" should not be available to any Muslim. The Muslim has the "rooh" in the soul, that is what makes the inanimate molecules come alive during conception. Allah decides the entry and exit point of the soul.
After death the departed soul enters a state of limbo known as barzakh until the day of reckoning. Secularists or humanists believe life ends at the grave, a Muslim doesn't. The Quran clearly says "....He gives life and causes death, and to Him you shall be brought back. (10:56)"

I'm struggling to get my head round that.

If someone is of the Muslim religion and that forbids it = they personally make the choice of:

a. Whether to stay a Muslim and accept that viewpoint of them not having any personal choice
or
b. Leave the Muslim religion if need be if that's the only acceptable way for them to make their own personal decision for themselves.

Obviously in our society as a whole we must have that choice and if someone decides (for whatever reason) not to make that choice for themselves = that is entirely up to them and they either:
- choose not to choose and accept what they've been told
or
- make their own choice

It is their life = their decision (even if that decision is not to make a decision themselves).

Our own personal decisions might well differ from those of a group we are in. I know that I've been in that position myself - as in many years back now I was in an evangelical Christian church and hadn't really clicked that women were not being regarded as equal. That was until the day where the man that was giving the Sunday morning sermon said "Anyone can give this sermon - unless they're a woman" or words to that effect. I clicked how that church thought at that point and instantly got up and literally walked right out in front of a chapel full of people - followed by walking into a liberal Christian church that has known women are equal since it was founded in the 17th century. Right from Day 1 there was simply no question of women obviously being equal (more equal than they are still to this day in secular society).

Even not making a choice and believing one doesn't have a choice = a choice of itself.