Assisted dying bill

I totally agree with Marydoll as do a lot of the current Labour Government Ministers of State

I have listened to them being interviewed on the morning news programmes for several weeks now, and they all say the same thing they have concerns around safe guarding

I have doubts about this Bill and couldn’t vote for it in its present form if I was an MP.

Marydoll

*Fleurpepper*, you have ignored my point, that sometimes, due to chronic pain, people are not able rationalise and make informed decisions about their treatment or wellbeing and may make a choice, which on better day, they would not make.
As I have said before, I have been in that position, where I have been in despair and had enough of chronic pain and ill health. That is what makes the the situation open to abuse.
Have you been in that position?

How wonderful that you have people, who would ensure you were able to make the decision if necessary.
You can only speak for yourself and not everyone will be in the position you claim to be in.
It is not about you, but about protecting those vulnerable people, who don't have the protection you have. Who will speak out for them?

I have tempered my reply, because I would probably find my post being deleted.

I applaud your stance on this. To find a DNR, usually only made with patient consent, or family if patient wishes known, must have been terrifying.
During a pandemic many people will die, that is the nature of pandemic, however much planning is done. But to deliberately refuse to help someone in need, whatever age, because of their incapacity or learning difficulty, was the dark side of Medicine .
Well said, and you're very brave to stand up against this terrible Bill.

I can't debate with Wes Streeting as his opinion isn't about NHS funding, the state of healthcare or protecting the vulnerable, it stems from his faith. He's demonstrated he's self serving to the core.

Fleurpepper, you have ignored my point, that sometimes, due to chronic pain, people are not able rationalise and make informed decisions about their treatment or wellbeing and may make a choice, which on better day, they would not make.
As I have said before, I have been in that position, where I have been in despair and had enough of chronic pain and ill health. That is what makes the the situation open to abuse.
Have you been in that position?

How wonderful that you have people, who would ensure you were able to make the decision if necessary.
You can only speak for yourself and not everyone will be in the position you claim to be in.
It is not about you, but about protecting those vulnerable people, who don't have the protection you have. Who will speak out for them?

I have tempered my reply, because I would probably find my post being deleted.

From the Guardian
The Swiss Criminal Code of 1942 permitted adults to assist in another’s suicide as long as the motive for doing so was not “selfish”. Doctors are permitted to prescribe drugs for self-administration and to administer. Organisations providing assisted suicide have been providing services under certain regulations since 1985. Assisted suicide is lawful irrespective of the condition of the person who requests it.

Is this up to date and correct Fleurpepper? If so there are a couple of things which trouble me.

Marydoll 'Fleurpepper, I beg to differ.

I could not overturn that DNR notice, because a clinician had decided my fate. There was no way of rescinding it. I.e, some nameless clinician had determined my fate'

but that is my point entirely- you were not given the choice. The choice was not given to you for you to make.

Whereas in Assisted Dying- the choice would be yours, and yours only.

Because of where I live, I do have that choice btw. Witthout travelling, without putting my loved ones at risk of prosecution, and even in my own home, just as I would decide. And every step would be taken to ensure I am perfectly compos mentis, and that NO coercion whatsoever has taken place. And having that choice cost me a very small amount a year. I am so so grateful, and so is my OH who has seen and witnessed so much in his job. And we both feel strongly our UK family and friends should have that choice too.

So many of them have asked us 'if ever we need this, can we come to yours?' - and the answer has to be 'NO' as you ahve to be resident in Switzerland. Dignitas or Pegasos are their only choice- but it costs about £15000 + travel, hôtels, etc. It puts UK loved ones at risk of prosecution, and you have to go early to be fit enough to travel. How fair is this? Just available for the rich?

We are of course volunteers to help people once here, if they need a hand to hold and physical and emotional support. But why should they have to travel to here? This is so so wrong and elitist in the wrongest possible of ways.

madalene

Well if this worked as proposed, clearly no one would be forced to endure massive pain, loss of independence and loss of dignity to the bitter end. But I think Marydoll makes a very valid point. This bill would not work as is proposed, that is clear from what has happened in Canada. Undoubtedly the bill would be tampered with, watered down, and changes made as time went on. It would be the beginning of the end. Excellent palliative care should be the goal, not killing people.

Yes, this!

The bill is ill-timed, too complex and hasn't taken into account the complicating factors around how it will be funded, the roles of the GPs and the high court judge (s) whose job is really to weigh up whether justice is being served in any situation, and not approving a death sentence on a particular individual.

The risks are that MPs (most of whom are new to their jobs and only just finding their way around) will not have time to read through and consider the pros and cons of what would happen if they voted yes. This means they could be more open to pressures in their mail-box than they normally would. They could vote either way without having had time to think about how it will impact of NHS resources, for example.
If it is passed then the process is open to more scrutiny because it is just too complicated- therefore leaving it open to either not being used at all or in very rare circumstances, or mis-used. Either way I am very uncomfortable about it.

No doubt if it thrown out it will only be a matter of time before the matter is raised again.

Farzanah: Call me cynical but the AD Bill seems to me to be a “convenient” solution.

I have similar thoughts.

Farzanah

In a rich country such as ours WHY are adequate funds not being put into palliative care, which would also benefit the NHS. It is a political choice.

Call me cynical but the AD Bill seems to me to be a “convenient” solution.

I totally understand where MD is coming from. There was a huge outcry when the extent of the DNR blanket application became known. It can never be ethical or justified to sacrifice vulnerable citizens because of the government’s inability to plan for a not unexpected pandemic.
George Orwell got it right!

Far from unexpected "pandemic" for sure. I actually watched the tv (BBC I think?) programme a year or two before Lockdown and they were running a sort of "science" experiment in a small town seeing how people went about their daily business and making out that some people in that town had a Big Virus and watching the "virtual" spread of that virus round the town. From memory the Government was either behind or watching that experiment programme and made plans accordingly. That was just before (by some months?) Covid reared its head anywhere. The Government DID plan but when it came to it they pretty much abandoned those plans they'd already made and did what the WHO wanted instead...

I think some of us realised at that point "Not much longer - and this is going to be happening in the real world" and I know I certainly had the very surreal experience of walking round the little rural town I live in now and thinking "I'm used to this town being much quieter than my home city and finding the streets pretty empty most of the time compared to what I'm used to - but why have I got this thing running through me that this town is going to be much emptier than it normally is very soon now? Why am I planning places I can go for walks that vehicles can't manage? (that turned out to be all those police cars patrolling the streets)." I think there must have been others as well that took that tv programme and/or intuition as Advance Notice there was going to be a Lockdown soon. That felt very wierd knowing there was one coming soon and wondering what we'd be told was the reason for it and having this surreal "Walking through a Living Graveyard" vibes thing going on in my head...

So - yep...the "game was up" as to what was coming some months before we'd heard of Covid and then Lockdown was announced.

In a rich country such as ours WHY are adequate funds not being put into palliative care, which would also benefit the NHS. It is a political choice.

Call me cynical but the AD Bill seems to me to be a “convenient” solution.

I totally understand where MD is coming from. There was a huge outcry when the extent of the DNR blanket application became known. It can never be ethical or justified to sacrifice vulnerable citizens because of the government’s inability to plan for a not unexpected pandemic.
George Orwell got it right!

Fleurpepper, I beg to differ.

I could not overturn that DNR notice, because a clinician had decided my fate. There was no way of rescinding it. I.e, some nameless clinician had determined my fate.

Assisted dying is open to abuse, where someone may be coerced into assisted dying by someone, other than the person themself. I.e someone, who has no right to make the decision about another's fate.

What kind of society have we become?
How do we determine that a person is mentally capable of choosing to die? Chronic pain and ill health can affect how we feel and deminishes our cognitive ability and ability to make informed decisions.
I speak as someone, who has experienced this on a number of occasions.
I certainly have had thoughts on numerous occasions, that I am a burden to my family and a drain on the NHS and it would be better for everyone if I wasn't here.

Well if this worked as proposed, clearly no one would be forced to endure massive pain, loss of independence and loss of dignity to the bitter end. But I think Marydoll makes a very valid point. This bill would not work as is proposed, that is clear from what has happened in Canada. Undoubtedly the bill would be tampered with, watered down, and changes made as time went on. It would be the beginning of the end. Excellent palliative care should be the goal, not killing people.

Marydoll, DNR andassisted dying have very little, actually nothing, in common.

So Farzanah, because the UK's palliative facilities are so poor- everyone should be forced to endure massive pain, loss of indepence and dignity, to the bitter end?

So sorry, but I truly don't get it.

These are good points Marydoll.

both should be available, as a choice
If only they were. Unfortunately hospices are underfunded and struggling with some having to close. There are nurses and doctors trained in palliative care, but far too few, and good home palliative care rarely available.

Some of us may prefer to die at home with support or in a hospice, but many will simply not have that choice, and possibly end our days on a busy hospital ward.

I would be more enthusiastic about the AD Bill if these options were available for end of life care for most of us, but they are not.

I rarely come on the politics thread, for I am neither robust enough nor knowledgeable to hold my own.
However, I have written to my MP asking him to vote against the Bill.

I will never forget at the beginning of the pandemic, when I was told by my Consultant that a DNR notice had been put on my record in the event of me catching Covid. I was not consulted on this.
Basically I would be depriving someone with a chance of survival, of a bed in ICU, when there was no chance of me surviving.
In other words, my life was worthless and even more frightening, someone else held my fate in their hands.
Who has the right to decide whether someone should live or die.
How many will feel that they are a burden on their family and assisted suicide is the right thing to do?

Not Dead Yet UK is a network of disabled and terminally ill people, who believe, if the Bill is passed, some people's lives will be ended prematurely, due to mistakes and abuse.
No safeguards can guarantee protection from coercion.

'Why not the same in dying? What is wrong with caring for the sick and helpless, it is a very important part of what makes us human.'

nothing wrong with it at all. Both should be available, as a choice. One of my best friends recently died at a wonderful, amazing hospice, full of amazing people and care. I am so so grateful she was looked after so lovingly well in her last few days.

It is not, and never has been, about 'either/or'- but about choice. And for all. The comment about the 'I want to do what I want with my body' ''brigade'' - is just appalingly unfair, patronising and disrespectful in the extreme.

Macmillan were worse than useless, in my experience, and I can only hope whatever or whoever took on the assisted dying training did a damn site better.

Dinahmo

I find this discussion interesting because there is little about the beginning of life. So many changes have been made to medical procedures which enable young babies to stay alive but also advancements that can affect everyone's life so why not accept the changes that could affect the end of our life?

I think I mentioned this in my post which is several pages ago now.
Farzanah I think the premise is we didn't know where we were before we were born therefore how will we know where we are going after we die?

Quite simply some people would say, 'nowhere,' so what does it matter.

I make a case for human infants are born completely helpless and in need of the care of other humans to help us survive. Therefore we need at the very least, other humans to protect and care for us.

Why not the same in dying? What is wrong with caring for the sick and helpless, it is a very important part of what makes us human.

We are neither animals nor machines.

Maybe there should be a case for a speciality such as midwifery at the start of life, to a similar role and emphasis on a nurse who would be there on a final journey?

Of course we have the hospice movement and Macmillan and Marie Curie nurses, but these roles would be under threat if AD without very strict criteria were introduced. If this Bill is passed we will quickly realise that for some it doesn't go far enough, for others it will be misapplied and subject to misinterpretation and abuse.

It isn't a very positive outlook except for the 'I want to to do what I want with my body' brigade.

How are the two connected Dinahmo?

I find this discussion interesting because there is little about the beginning of life. So many changes have been made to medical procedures which enable young babies to stay alive but also advancements that can affect everyone's life so why not accept the changes that could affect the end of our life?

theworriedwell

That link is chilling. The fantasy of the perfect death blown out of the water.

I've expressed my reservations on other threads based on the truly horrific experience if my beautiful dog suffering a painful terrifying death. It seemed like she had some terrible reaction to the drugs.

I'm very sorry to ear that. It must have been horrible for you.

In my experience, I've had several pets put to sleep and have been with all but two of them. They were given a drug which sent them into a deep sleep, or so it seemed seemed, followed by the second one. It was peaceful and they didn't seem to know anything about it.

What was far worse for me was finding one of our dogs killed and laying by the side of the road. He was blind and he pushed open a gate that we thought was closed. He went missing on a Tuesday and we found him the Friday morning. we'd been out calling him, putting up posters and leafleting. We had two calls from people who'd seen him but because he didn't have a disc on his collar they assumed that they couldn't tell anyone about him.

Having gone through a drawn out death with both my parents I would not wish that on anyone and would prefer a legal, self administered death.

Thank you, Old Frill, for the good photos . I am so sorry for the poor of this country who ,at £15,000 at Dignitas , can't afford a good death.

I do believe in a soul and, personally speaking, that is one of my own reasons for believing in the right to voluntary euthanasia for anyone that has decided on this for themselves.

This is a primitive planet - with a noticeable proportion of people on it primitive (wars, crimes, huge disparities in income....do I need to say more?) and part of that is these very fallible bodies we have to live in whilst we're here. To me - it's a LOT to have to make the best we can out of living on Earth and I certainly wouldn't want to add being forced to live in a body that was experiencing a lot of illness. To me - why on earth would I want to live in a particularly faulty body (as well as a faulty Society) and I think it's cruel to keep people alive against their will/rather than provide them with the means of "voluntary euthanasia" if their health dictates that as an option and they've made that decision.

So - yep...I think people of most belief systems and none would agree it should be our own personal free choice as to what we do if our health becomes unbearable.

My personal viewpoint is "Why on earth would anyone suffer and wait it out for release from pain/suffering - when they can be free of all suffering/having that (virtual) champagne at the heavenly Welcome Home party at the end of it all?" Cue for everyone I know for long at all gets told "If I have the family heart attack in front of you = do NOT resuscitate me whilst I'm busily thinking 'Thank goodness - goodbye to Earth' and having my first glass of virtual champagne to celebrate.

I don’t believe in a “soul” but am a humanist, believing that science and natural selection are more credible explanations for life than a supernatural god. However I have many doubts about the proposed Bill on AD as it stands at the moment.