Assisted dying bill passed.

She's got the right attitude foxie48 good luck to her coping with the other medics.

Good for your daughter foxie48.

Please thank your wise daughter foxie

Medical ethics is indeed an interesting subject! DD is just finishing a stint in intensive care as part of her training. She has an issue with other doctors wanting her to accept their patients into ICU when they are going to die anyway. Basically transferring responsibility to the ICU staff rather than dealing with it themselves and taking up an ICU bed, which are in short supply, potentially denying it to someone who with the right care might survive. As she said, working in ICU is very stressful, dealing with death on a daily basis, often of young people and frequently doing your best to keep someone alive but failing can sap your energy and resilience. But fighting for the right of someone to die with dignity, not sedated with a tube down their throat and a machine keeping them alive is just the worst experience. We really need to think more about giving someone a good death rather than extending their life unnecessarily and if this bill helps some terminally ill people, then I'm all for it.

medical ethics is a fascinating and very complex subject

It is and currently, the bill recognises this

What does 'do no harm' mean, in modern medicine?

Does artificially prolonging a miserable, painful life, against a patient's wishes, add to 'doing harm' or not?

Medical ehtics is a fascinating and very complex subject.

Grantanow

To the best of my knowledge there is no requirement on doctors to take the Hippocratic Oath.

I have just been reading up on this and it appears it is part of their graduation ceremony.

To the best of my knowledge there is no requirement on doctors to take the Hippocratic Oath.

GrannyGravy13

I am seeing lots of doctors on line saying they will not take part in AD as it goes against the Hippocratic Oath.

I think that’s commendable, and their choice, though I thought the oath was “do no harm” which I don’t consider assisted dying at the patient’s request “breaks”

That should read DM! My mother, not my husband, who is alive and well and making me a cuppa!

Iam64

When a patient is clearly near the end of life, morphine is used to make them more comfortable and to ease their way.

Due to some errors made by our hospital my DH was discharged with sepsis, amongst other things, and no end of life plan.

She was more than ready to die.

Despite trying hard to contact the relevant people we “nursed” her alone from Wednesday to Sunday, and were so so grateful we had her prescribed liquid morphine, which kept her death relatively pain free. Nevertheless it was a terrible experience for all, she knew she was dying and the sepsis spread to her brain and her hands and feet turned black.

We did increase her morphine on the Sunday she died, it was all just so awful!

I am seeing lots of doctors on line saying they will not take part in AD as it goes against the Hippocratic Oath.

I believe MPs are already questioning the decision, as many were disappointed in the standard, and brevity of the debate, and the lack of questioning.
Too much emphasis on emotion, not enough discussion of harsh realities and consequences.
Hopefully there will be more stringent discussions and amendments about this very important issue before it is finally passed. It should not be rushed.

Auntieflo

Having bone cancer, and the pain slowly increasing, I was happy to hear that this bill had been passed today.
I have a DNR ( do not resuscitate) form and amended by a Sue Ryder nurse that says I would welcome palliative care, and to be kept pain free.
I have to believe that my wishes will be followed, as I do not want to die, fighting pain.

When a patient is clearly near the end of life, morphine is used to make them more comfortable and to ease their way.

*NOT stop it being talked about

Freya5

OldFrill

nanna8

What a sick comment. I’m talking about large doses of morphine to terminally ill people here to alleviate their pain. It kills them. I am absolutely shocked at what you said.

You said -

I think ‘unofficially’ it has been happening for a while with seriously ill patients in their last few days but you are not meant to talk about it

So "unofficially" (without any regulation) someone can administer a lethal dose of drugs and that's not murder?

And you then stated that unofficial method of killing is preferable to regulated (legal) assisted dying/suicide.

I know nurses used to see off terminal patients, it was murder then and it's murder if it happens now. Compassion doesn't excuse illegal killing, it has to be regulated.

That's a terrible thing to say re Nurses. Increase of diamorphine is done incrementally to ease pain, not a deliberate injection to cause death , there is a huge difference. If I'd been asked to "murder" a patient,
I would have left a profession I loved.
Assisted suicide is the way to go here, as in Switzerland, done by patient themselves, or a machine, as in Switzerland. Not involving medical professionals to deliver the fatal dose. That is the easy way out, get someone else to do the dirty work.

If stating the truth is terrible that's probably what nanna8 means when she says "but you are not meant to talk about it". The truth can be terrible but that should stop it being talked about.
I was, l thought, clearly meaning same time in the past, not present day. It wasn't via injection.

Sorry, my previous post is on the wrong thread, I have asked for it to be deleted.

Cossy

Interesting concept, are we playing God

So when surgeons perform transplants, paramedics or doctors resuscitate people, or very premature babies are saved, is that playing God?

I’m very pleased this bill has progressed.

Jehovah's Witnesses do refuse blood transfusions and organ donations, etc, for that very reason. At least they are consistent.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Well said Cossy -

Interesting concept, are we playing God

So when surgeons perform transplants, paramedics or doctors resuscitate people, or very premature babies are saved, is that playing God?

I’m very pleased this bill has progressed.

Hopefully it is quite specific and stays that way

Aveline

What if the patient just isn't compus mentis enough to know what's going on or cope with the necessary waits for 2 doctors, a high court judge then two more weeks?

Then it won't go ahead. Same as in Switzerland.

ftm420

Mixed feelings here too, but in my mind, it's not about those witnessing the suffering, nor those administering palliative care (if you are lucky enough to find a place).

It has to be about the one who is actually suffering. Family and nurses can be as caring and compassionate as they like, but the sufferer is the one who needs to be able to call an end to it.

I very much agree.There is still too much suffering and pain, good palliative care is a postcode lottery.
As long as good checks and balances are firmly in place then I think that having a choice in this matter near the end of life can only be a good thing.Even if a person decides not to use assisted dying they know it’s there which must be a comfort.
Having some control and dignity at this stage is crucial.