And they're off! Again!

😄

MaizieD

^Taxing the rich is very difficult.^

I appreciate that, David. Which is why I would prefer measures that prevent them from accumulating so much.

Perhaps limiting what could be 'owned' by a company...

It's not a wealth grab, it's a wealth limitation

Businesses need to be taxed more as they are growing, as a business expands the profit can be understated, reinvested and put into reserve. Only when a business is consolidated or shrinking does it pay significant tax, that’s why successful businesses grow quickly.

Online businesses pay very little UK tax they pay tax in their regional HQ, often Ireland which has a low Corporation Tax rate. Even then that can be minimized by charging for “services” or “ intellectual property” by the parent company often in a tax haven.

This is grossly unfair to many countries because they dominate the market and put local businesses that are paying tax at a disadvantage.

Sounds familiar*David49*.

escaped

Macron has just made a short speech. He didn't quite say, "I've landed us all dans la merde", but he did say he accepted responsibility.
He blamed the Far Left and the Far Right for the current chaos, the disorder I think he said.
He then waffled on about making France great again, and used the restoration Cathedral of Notre-Dame as an image of rising again.
He sounded a bit p***ed off.
No information about who the new PM might be, or how they are going to get out of the mess.

The far right and far left can’t be reconciled, one thinks the cuts are too too severe, the other thinks they are not tough enough.
Both want to get rid of centrist Macron and impose their ideas.

petal53

Well whatever, at least he’ll be able to pick up all the benefits of his three months (is it three months, happy to be corrected) in office.

Less time in power than Liz Truss they say!

ronib

MaizieD would you like to rethink this idea? It’s a non starter.

What would happen then to the ‘extra’ wealth presumably still being created by a successful business?
i.e. Why bother continuing?

Macron has just made a short speech. He didn't quite say, "I've landed us all dans la merde", but he did say he accepted responsibility.
He blamed the Far Left and the Far Right for the current chaos, the disorder I think he said.
He then waffled on about making France great again, and used the restoration Cathedral of Notre-Dame as an image of rising again.
He sounded a bit p***ed off.
No information about who the new PM might be, or how they are going to get out of the mess.

MaizieD

^Taxing the rich is very difficult.^

I appreciate that, David. Which is why I would prefer measures that prevent them from accumulating so much.

Perhaps limiting what could be 'owned' by a company...

It's not a wealth grab, it's a wealth limitation

I don’t think Bill Gates or Elon Musk would like that idea, Jeff Bezos boasted that he pays no tax some years.

It’s not fair obviously, getting all countries to agree a common fairer tax system especially the US is not likely to happen anytime soon.
To get tax out of global companies each country needs to tax turnover not profit, if we taxed Amazon, Microsoft even 1% of turnover it would be a massive amount.

Perhaps making sure big companies and landowners actually do pay their tax would be a good start.

The morality of "getting away with it if you can as being OK" never could understand it when so much need around.

MaizieD would you like to rethink this idea? It’s a non starter.

Taxing the rich is very difficult.

I appreciate that, David. Which is why I would prefer measures that prevent them from accumulating so much.

Perhaps limiting what could be 'owned' by a company...

It's not a wealth grab, it's a wealth limitation

“The big question is whether or not it ends up in enough of the right pockets, i.e those of people who will spend it, or in too many wealthy pockets, because wealthy people don't spend like the less well off do.”

That is the problem wealthy people don’t spend the money they invest it, it starts at a very low level with house buying, that cash is removed from the economy. It has supported the company that built it and his workers, after that most of it attracts very little tax.
The wealthy invest in shares, pension or business growth, not consumer spending, they also “live” the business, most of their social activities are connected to the business.
The Ultra wealthy with international businesses can direct the cash to where ever they want to, houses, yachts, areoplanes and cars are owned by the company.

Taxing the rich is very difficult.

ronib

MaizieD I can mourn the colossal waste of government spending and it shows no signs of slowing down.

Just console yourself with the fact that all government spending ends up in someone's pockets, or in a company's pockets. And a lot of the people whose pockets it ends up in will spend it into the domestic economy, so keeping other people in work and contributing to growth.

The big question is whether or not it ends up in enough of the right pockets, i.e those of people who will spend it, or in too many wealthy pockets, because wealthy people don't spend like the less well off do.

Casdon

It was ronib, the Tory Manifesto for 2019 recognised it, but do you think it delivered? This is the manifesto pledge.

‘Introduce a points-based immigration system
Fewer lower-skilled migrants will be allowed into the UK.

The last Conservative manifesto reiterated the leadership's intention to reduce net migration to less than 100,000. It became an albatross - a much-criticised target that was never achieved. Boris Johnson had already jettisoned it in favour of an Australian style points-based system, attracting "the brightest and the best".

The focus on control means that fewer lower skilled migrants will be allowed into the UK. But while the Conservatives can argue this will mean less pressure on public services, it is these services which often rely on migrant labour.

This policy applies to the whole of the UK.’

(From BBC analysis of Manifesto promises)

The point is being missed here, somewhat.

In the post that I responded to ronib was complaining that Labour had done things that weren't in their manifesto. I was pointing out that parties can do things that weren't in their manifesto and that the Rwanda scheme was a case in point. It wasn't in the 2019 tory manifesto.

escaped

It's interesting, about France Mamie.
In the past yes, France has picked itself up, dusted off its troubles, and as you say, done the right thing, (for itself at least).
But these are unprecededented times, the world is a different place and the whole of Europe is in a mess economically. I think I heard on tv that France's debt is now way above what is allowed in the Euro zone. Something drastic will need to be done there, it goes beyond a few hiccups, and I for one would be just as concerned living in France or UK.

Yes the debt is appalling and unsustainable which is why major pension reform had to happen, along with other cuts. You simply can't have a workforce retiring at 60 in these times. Macron has been very good at tackling the sclerotic bureaucracy that destroyed small businesses and moving French business and industry into the modern world. Resources have continued to be been poured into services and sustainable development. The starting point of budget reduction is the difference I think.

petal53

Oh dear, poor Michel Barnier.
How the mighty fall.

Couldn't have happened to a nicer man. His arrogance personified the EU.

petal53

Oh dear, poor Michel Barnier.
How the mighty fall.

Someone had to take the poisoned chalice, he tried to make sense of the economy, another victim maybe 2 will also try and fail.
Until France elects a stable government the problems continue

It's interesting, about France Mamie.
In the past yes, France has picked itself up, dusted off its troubles, and as you say, done the right thing, (for itself at least).
But these are unprecededented times, the world is a different place and the whole of Europe is in a mess economically. I think I heard on tv that France's debt is now way above what is allowed in the Euro zone. Something drastic will need to be done there, it goes beyond a few hiccups, and I for one would be just as concerned living in France or UK.

Well whatever, at least he’ll be able to pick up all the benefits of his three months (is it three months, happy to be corrected) in office.

petal53

Oh dear, poor Michel Barnier.
How the mighty fall.

Barnier has done a good job so far, but this result of the budget vote was inevitable given the disruptive nature of the far left and the far right in this Parliament. He is likely to remain in office for a while until there is agreement on the next PM. Meanwhile the 2024 budget will remain place.

Wyllow3 Labour is targeting farmers. Our food supply. Quite frankly that’s barmy.
I would make it impossible for unearned income to be taxed at more favourable rates than earned income. For example, dividends need to be taxed at the highest rate much like earnings.

Casdon In simple terms we all know that the Conservatives certainly didn’t keep net migration under 100k. The question has to be why did they even bother to put a figure on it? Yes we definitely don’t expect manifesto promises to be worth much by now.

ronib

Wyllow3 well it’s obvious to me that Labour wants to clamp down on inherited wealth. It’s not targeting the rich however…..

Labour is taxing some aspect of inherited wealth, sure. and it is targeting the very well off at some points.

This is to raise money, how is is "re-structuring" society, if it's spent on NHS, Education, care, and so on, ie just keeping going got society we have.

How instead do you think we could have better raised the money?

You’ve not answered my question ronib. It was, specifically, do you think the last government fulfilled its manifesto promise?

Casdon Rwanda was aimed at a specific group of people who are still entering the country in increasing numbers? The manifesto was not about that group. It remains to be seen how Labour controls boat crossings.
Going to my local hospital is a truly international experience. There are very few indigenous people working there. So I guess most of the migrants brought in under the Conservative government are working there … or similar NHS…