could 5% cuts mean end of privatisation?

equal pay claims are not that simple. We are not discussing whether a man or a woman does the same job but a similar job. Equal pay is quite complicated as it is comparing skills etc so school cooks with dustmen for example . Part of the issue is that many councils paid bonuses to dustmen and not school staff.
As an ex civil servant , the department was given a budget BUT then the government would ask us to reply at least £1m. This request is not new and one of the reasons as to why the country is in a mess. You can't run departments with insufficient money and allocating to one budget . I could have bought a phone/fax machine for less than one one and one fax machine but the government (all colours) is obsessed with separate budgets . So one machine is considered technology and the other communications - 2 budgets so 2 machines.
2 machines are more costly than one

ayse

Our council outsourced running of allotments and public spaces to a so called Not For Profit company called Urban Green. They have outpriced the 100 year old fishing club and the park maintenance has certainly not improved. My local park just over the road has lost its rubbish bins, the cafe has closed and it seems little maintenance has been done.

I looked up the owners who are all on LinkedIn! They are all CEOs/Finance managers etc.

They have spent their whole budget, leaving a huge short fall and the council have had to take back control!

So much for private enterprise running a public service. I’d bet they paid themselves handsomely in the process.
Our bin service is fine though so it’s not all bad.

Looking back over the last 40 years, privatisation has not improved essential public services. They should be in public hands or controlled and regulated in out interest. This is currently not the case.

I completely agree, privatisation hasn't improved services but it has enriched many fat cats & your example of allotments sounds typical. I don't think it would be that difficult to renationalise services, trains are about to do it, you just inform staff that their boss will now be xxx instead of yyy in just the same way they did when private companies took over services. You just need some good managers to do it. The existing contracts do need to expire though, it would be too expensive to get out of them early.

I wouldn't hold my breath. It's true that privatised services are usually more expensive than in-house unless the private operator cuts the service to the bone but contracts often have years to run and escape may involve compensation.

The fostering cos I know of are charitable organisations. Yes they will have CEOs etc but so do Councils who have a fair salaries. Indeed, L. A. workers generally are paid a better hourly rate than in private companies when it come to service provision. A 5% reduction will either be through less staff, better application of existing staff to enable more to be achieved thus reducing need to employ more for ever increasing workload. Of course costing supplies can help. Heard yesterday about the scandalous cost of folders provided to MPs to keep their papers in, more than double the one on sale in the Parliament shop at £32.99!!!!!

petra

As someone who calls themselves PoliticsNerd you appear to be very unaware of some important facts.
Failure of privatisation is all around you.
I give you one example.
When the buses were privatised I managed the printing and publicity department of one of the largest companies.
We all knew exactly what was going to happen. The shame was, the general public thought they were going to get a better service.
As an aside the 4 directors received a large some of money for our pension fund. I was told that by the company secretary.

tribunemag.co.uk/2023/12/how-bus-privatisation-screwed-post-industrial-britain-thatcher

I'm not at all sure what you want me to reply to petra. Perhaps you don't, but just want to express your opinion.

Obviously you are entitled to do that but it doesn't feel like a move towards a discussion.

MaizieD

PoliticsNerd

Just a wider view MaizieD.

Based on what? You're the one calling for evidence after making an unevidenced statement 😁

Okaaay.

Then rephrase to "just asking for a wider view".

I forgot to mention they sold our pension to Equitable Life 😂 adding insult to injury.

As someone who calls themselves PoliticsNerd you appear to be very unaware of some important facts.
Failure of privatisation is all around you.
I give you one example.
When the buses were privatised I managed the printing and publicity department of one of the largest companies.
We all knew exactly what was going to happen. The shame was, the general public thought they were going to get a better service.
As an aside the 4 directors received a large some of money for our pension fund. I was told that by the company secretary.

tribunemag.co.uk/2023/12/how-bus-privatisation-screwed-post-industrial-britain-thatcher

PoliticsNerd

Just a wider view MaizieD.

Based on what? You're the one calling for evidence after making an unevidenced statement 😁

Why did privatization fail, because the contract companies are cleverer than the government organizations they are working for
Macquarie taking over Thames Water, they should never have had the assets transferred to them, enabling them to asset strip the utility. That’s an extreme case but all the companies are making money from work outside the contract specification, that has to be done.

Just a wider view MaizieD.

That aside, I can't see why any cut could or would indicate a need to bring "services back in house". We have tried that before and decided we needed to change it because it failed.

I think you're taking a very odd view of this. Privatisation of social care happened because swingeing cuts to council funding meant they could no longer afford to maintain and run their own provision. It was small state ideology that caused the change, not failures in council provision.

spabbygirl

The gov't have asked local authorities etc to make 5% cuts, could this be the start of bringing services back in house?
It seems to me that that is the only way to bring about cuts with no change to services. I'm assuming that the rubbish etc services that are privatised involve a payment for shareholders. I work in fostering and the profits the private companies get from providing foster care are phenomenal, although I actually think it works in fostering, if you reduced the excessive payments.

It would be really helpful, as it is the foundation for the discussion, if we could be told where we can find details of this, so far, mythical cut.

That aside, I can't see why any cut could or would indicate a need to bring "services back in house". We have tried that before and decided we needed to change it because it failed.

Does anyone know of research that explained how, in what way, privatisation and/or in house provision failed? Did either of these always fail or were there some areas of success. What about Not For Profit companies or other ways some councils have tried?

With just the early moves towards devolution in England to the Combined Councils there seems to be a greater swapping of what works and what doesn't. I do hope we are going to hear more about that.

Twisting words again I’ve said nothing more than you choose your lifestyle, that may limit the work you can do. It’s disappointing that so many make really bad choices.

As views like David49’s are still available it’s blatantly obvious that women have a way to go in the never ending fight against misogyny!

Nobody is twisting your words but wow, you really don't like women do you David49. Obviously, in your world they are singularly to blame for the all the ills of a world that then treats many of them as second class. Poor you, that so many of us believe we are born equal to men.

However, the issue is not with simplistic misogyny but a comparison between jobs, some of which just happen to be done mainly or wholly by one gender.

Twisting words here in Birmingham Bin men were said to be equivalent to cleaners so cleaners claimed equal pay and got it, nearly bankrupting the council.

Women make choices in their lifestyle that limit the work they can do.
Not learning a skill, a woman can be whatever she wants, if she chooses not get a qualification she will always be doing low paid work, it doesn’t have to be a degree there are plenty of vocational qualifications

Family restrictions, it’s your choice to have a family, it will in a great many cases limit the work you can do, even so its much easier than years ago.

I’m actually very surprised that more women don’t work in the building industry, a few do clerical or inspection supervision a small number do decorating. It’s the hours that are needed to do the job you have to start a 7am finish at 5pm you are working in a team and have to be there, a car factory would be the same you clock on and clock off.

The choices you make determine your life, don’t blame men they are your decisions.

Iam64

theworriedwell, I’m pleased you got home to your children when the mob surrounded the police station where you worked. My dad could have been the superintendent you told you were going home to feed your kids. He of course wouldn’t have got home to us and, if anything had happened to you, he’d have been blamed

He wouldn't. I wasn't a police officer and my shift was done, I was free to go. My choice, my responsibility. Actually he could have gone home, Community Relations officers arrived to take over, people not from that station so anyone who wanted to leave could have left if they weren't on duty. I was the only one who did. The difference was it was where I grew up, everyone else who was there came from different parts of the city or somewhere even further away. No way was I going to sit there for hours.

The law doesn't say "deemed" of equal value, David49, it says

"... same, similar, equivalent or of equal value."

"How can anyone say that a refuse collector is equal to an office clerk, a cleaner equal to an office manager, a builder equal to an accountant…"

I haven't seen anyone suggest this. Aren't you actually saying that if you, personally, dont understand how the job evaluation process used to determine job equivalence works then all those that do must be wrong?

Back to the interesting OP I think.

👏👏 Monica. I cant believe I'm reading this stuff. Much care work is very skilled indeed, emotionally extremely so. But as it has been women in the past its historically low pay and of course men who enter care work are also low paid.

David49 That is only one side of the supply and demand. The other is when there is a shortage of suitable skilled staff, or conditions are unpleasant and people do not want to do the jobs. Then it is the employee who calls the tune, employers have to pay more, perhaps take on less skilled people and train them up, look at different ways of organising the workplace to make people want to work for them.

^ it’s the limitations women put on themselves that determine pay. The worst pay is often care work because whoever the employer they know there are plenty of unskilled women who have no alternative^

I find this quotation totally incomprehensible. What women are putting what limitations on themselves? As for unskilled women having no alternative to care work. The reason care homes are often understaffed is because there is alternative and better paid work that unskilled women can do. What it is may vary from place to place

David49

Whether it’s pleasant or not it’s still supply and demand Monica, an employer wants his work done to the required standard for the lowest cost, in addition many workplaces have deskilled. Workers are slaves to computers who make all the decisions, maybe a car worker fitting car parts or a call centre worker following prompts on a screen. Car factories pay better wages and employ plenty of women on the production line alongside men.

Your experience was increased feminization of the workplace and very little discrimination is normal these days, it’s the limitations women put on themselves that determine pay. The worst pay is often care work because whoever the employer they know there are plenty of unskilled women who have no alternative

So, yet again it’s our fault we are discriminated against

theworriedwell, I’m pleased you got home to your children when the mob surrounded the police station where you worked. My dad could have been the superintendent you told you were going home to feed your kids. He of course wouldn’t have got home to us and, if anything had happened to you, he’d have been blamed

Whether it’s pleasant or not it’s still supply and demand Monica, an employer wants his work done to the required standard for the lowest cost, in addition many workplaces have deskilled. Workers are slaves to computers who make all the decisions, maybe a car worker fitting car parts or a call centre worker following prompts on a screen. Car factories pay better wages and employ plenty of women on the production line alongside men.

Your experience was increased feminization of the workplace and very little discrimination is normal these days, it’s the limitations women put on themselves that determine pay. The worst pay is often care work because whoever the employer they know there are plenty of unskilled women who have no alternative

growstuff

I really don't think refuse collectors should be getting some kind of danger money because one person was killed by a faulty vehicle. It sounds like some kind of Health and Safety failure.

I suppose it depends, I'd want danger money to load one of those things. If you don't know the victim it probably doesn't seem so relevant.

I don't know if it is the only time it has happened and as I said I don't know if any cleaners have been killed, something like being electrocuted by a faulty vacuum.

I had a fire bomb through my office window in 1981 or 1982 when there was some unrest and I worked in a police station. No one offered me danger money though, my biggest issue was it took them months to repair the window and by December it was very cold.

A few years later we were also told we couldn't go home as the station was surrounded by a mob. I left anyway and just told the Superintendent my kids would be waiting for dinner. The mob were very nice and parted to let me go. I did laugh the next day when I found out everyone else was "trapped" for 3 or 4 hours.