Isabella Jonas-Wheildon

I cant answer that cossy. But I would like these issues to be explored. The abuse may be hidden I suppose, or they may be completely under that persons control, and obviously in some cases they are equally culpable.

Galaxy

I probably do but I can understand the thinking, the outcomes for children in care are dire.

I think it’s a better description to say “can be “dire”

My cousin and his wife adopted a little girl as she couldn’t have another child after their first child. This was over a decade ago, she’s delightful and has a great life now. My cousin is a consultant paediatrician in a large children’s hospital.

My best friend has adopted grandson, her son and his husband adopted a beautiful boy at 3, he’s now 10 and absolutely thriving, one of his “daddies” s a primary school Head.

There are stories with happy endings, but I agree that they are in the minority.

Galaxy

I think the risk where a step parent is present is 40 times more, if I remember the stats correctly. This of course doesnt mean all step parents are a risk but we need to talk about this without worrying about hurting peoples feelings.

I’m a step parent, married to a step parent, we both had a child prior to meeting, then married and had three more children.

Had my husband abused my son or any of our biological children he’d have been reported to the police and removed from our home.

I almost understand a woman staying with an abuser when the abuse is only directed at her, but once the children are actively abused? Why stay?

I probably do but I can understand the thinking, the outcomes for children in care are dire.

TerriBull

Yes Star thank you Petal. Beautiful girls Star, Sara and Isabella. Not forgetting all the other precious children murdered by sadists and inadequates. I hope they are in a better place now.

Maybe Michael Gove was right in this instance, regardless of whatever you think of him, adopted himself he was of the opinion more babies should be removed at birth when the signs dictate they will be going back to a chaotic and potentially dangerous home.

I completely agree with Mr Gove (a first for me!!)

BlueBelle

It’s nothing at all to do with religion or with race it’s a baby being killed by her own parent and unfortunately baby and child killers come in all races, all colours, all religions
Horrible horrible people and I hope they throw the key away and I hope they have a horrible time in prison
They d be on bread and water and in solitary if I was in charge
Poor little baby they didn’t care a hoot

What’s more, if they were ever released, I would see them ALL sterilised.

I think the risk where a step parent is present is 40 times more, if I remember the stats correctly. This of course doesnt mean all step parents are a risk but we need to talk about this without worrying about hurting peoples feelings.

What I don’t understand is the disparity in the sentencing in these cases. I get the point that they are both charged with different crimes under the law but he gets 26 years she gets 10 and this happens time and time again.
As far as I can see she is just as responsible for the poor little girl death for standing by and doing nothing as he is ( probably morally rather than legally) but the law should be changed . They both killed the little girl him by his actions and her by doing sweet FA and letting it happen

Dickens

Galaxy

It is still more complex than that, religion is at times a relevant factor to be discussed in abuse cases, the issues within the catholic church for example are around abuse of power, the fact that priests are seen as 'safe people', their access to children, etc. So it isnt about the religion as such but it is fine to discuss the aspects of it which can lead to safeguarding risks. I am wary of any reluctance to discuss specific issues with regard to safeguarding.

Good point Galaxy.

It is still more complex than that, religion is at times a relevant factor to be discussed in abuse cases...

Yes, you're absolutely right.

So it isnt about the religion as such but it is fine to discuss the aspects of it which can lead to safeguarding risks.

The institutional hierarchy of a religion, or the cultural impact of its interpretation, are both aspects which can lead to safeguarding issues, I think.

... and yes, we should be able to discuss these aspects with regard to safeguarding without accusations of prejudice, because they can apply to all religions.

... and yes, we should be able to discuss these aspects with regard to safeguarding without accusations of prejudice, because they can apply to all religions

Yes, we should. Accusations of prejudice are factors in professionals and others being reluctant to pursue investigations.

I can think of at least three cases where parents belonged to extreme cults and the child concerned died because the child was homeschooled, kept away from nursery and generally hidden away, starved and died. A Christian cult, another which the father had made up.

petal53

Her name was Star TerriBull.
It was yet another case in a long line of these cases where an innocent child was murdered by their parents/carers.

I remember a picture of the lovely little girl in an Easter bonnet type hat, but I can't remember her name.

Terribull and petal53
I remember that Star's grandfather committed suicide, he was so distraught, and wanted to 'look after the baby in Heaven'.

Loving grandparents and extended family are often cut off by abusive parents and step-parents, much to their distress.

Galaxy

It is still more complex than that, religion is at times a relevant factor to be discussed in abuse cases, the issues within the catholic church for example are around abuse of power, the fact that priests are seen as 'safe people', their access to children, etc. So it isnt about the religion as such but it is fine to discuss the aspects of it which can lead to safeguarding risks. I am wary of any reluctance to discuss specific issues with regard to safeguarding.

Good point Galaxy.

It is still more complex than that, religion is at times a relevant factor to be discussed in abuse cases...

Yes, you're absolutely right.

So it isnt about the religion as such but it is fine to discuss the aspects of it which can lead to safeguarding risks.

The institutional hierarchy of a religion, or the cultural impact of its interpretation, are both aspects which can lead to safeguarding issues, I think.

... and yes, we should be able to discuss these aspects with regard to safeguarding without accusations of prejudice, because they can apply to all religions.

That's wonderful that your grandson has loving parents and is thriving after a difficult start.

I agree with you and Michael Gove about that.
We have an adopted grandchild. He was removed at 14 months into foster care, and was two and a half before our son adopted him. It would have been so much better for him if he had been adopted at birth. He would never have suffered the appalling neglect he was subjected to because he was left there.
He’s thriving now. Twelve years old.

Yes Star thank you Petal. Beautiful girls Star, Sara and Isabella. Not forgetting all the other precious children murdered by sadists and inadequates. I hope they are in a better place now.

Maybe Michael Gove was right in this instance, regardless of whatever you think of him, adopted himself he was of the opinion more babies should be removed at birth when the signs dictate they will be going back to a chaotic and potentially dangerous home.

Her name was Star TerriBull.
It was yet another case in a long line of these cases where an innocent child was murdered by their parents/carers.

I very much agree with Monica, in that it does appear that most deaths of young children are at the hands of a person, that the often fairly youngish mother has attached herself to and insultingly to step parents who have a real input, that person passing through can be referred to as the "step parent" when in fact they are just someone the mother is shacked up with. Clearly with no feelings for the child from a previous relationship. other than animosity. Often they present as an immature inadequate. .Little Isabella suffered such a fate that is all too common but what marked her case out is the way those callous individuals walked about with her dead body covered up for several days after she'd been killed acting as if nothing had happened given a glimpse into where and what they were doing, not a care in the world It's very hard to get one's head around that.

Sara suffered a sustained period of abuse at the hands of her father who by all accounts was a violent person before she entered the world. I'm not thinking about the father's ethnicity in this case, but remembering Victoria Climbe several years ago. I believe at the time, there was thought to be a reticence in tackling the abusers from visits by social workers, because of cultural sensitivities. I think that was also suggested, more recently, that there could have been a factor not long ago where possibly social workers held back due to the "step parent" being a woman in a same sex partnership and the little girl died at her hands, the mother it was thought as very young and easily led and possibly had learning difficulties. I remember a picture of the lovely little girl in an Easter bonnet type hat, but I can't remember her name.

Every child murdered by a brutal parent or parent's partner is a heartbreaking tragedy whatever the circumstances and happens all too often with the old cliche of "lessons have been learned" in the aftermath.

Vile and violent torture and abuse of small children is terrible and far too many children die each year as the result of such abuse.

The only common denominator to most (but not all) of these deaths is that one parent is not a biological parent.

Quote MaizieD Sat 14-Dec-24 08:40:19
Anniebach
growstuff I did not misunderstand you O/P, you wondered what the religion of the murderer is,
I think you did misunderstand, Ab. I was momentarily taken aback by it, but, knowing the OP's usual rational approach to topics I could see the intent. I don't think it was very well expressed, though.

But then, I haven't read much of the SS thread...

What was the intent ?

Yep.
Gransnet hits an all time low.
The tragic deaths of innocent children being argued about.
Not sure how this tread is still standing.

Anniebach

growstuff I did not misunderstand you O/P, you wondered what the religion of the murderer is,

I think you did misunderstand, Ab. I was momentarily taken aback by it, but, knowing the OP's usual rational approach to topics I could see the intent. I don't think it was very well expressed, though.

But then, I haven't read much of the SS thread...

I think we have now hit an all time low.

growstuff I did not misunderstand you O/P, you wondered what the religion of the murderer is,

BlueBelle

Anniebach that’s confusing me too ???

I totally agree Galaxy religion can and does have a big role to play in abuse of children by priests, vicars, the religious state etc etc but I don’t think it plays a part in individual cases unless of course it’s pointed out that the parents religion did have some influence… neither does the parents ethnicity, again unless that plays a part as in sacrifices
But
None of that applies in this case the mother and lover appear Caucasian and no religion is suggested, they are just baby killers and need a heavy punishment I think 10 years is way way to short a sentence for the mother
They both should have had life like the little baby

Religion didn't play a part in Sara Sharif's murder either. Her father and stepmother are violent sadists.

Galaxy

It is still more complex than that, religion is at times a relevant factor to be discussed in abuse cases, the issues within the catholic church for example are around abuse of power, the fact that priests are seen as 'safe people', their access to children, etc. So it isnt about the religion as such but it is fine to discuss the aspects of it which can lead to safeguarding risks. I am wary of any reluctance to discuss specific issues with regard to safeguarding.

So which aspects of religion led to safeguarding risks? Sara Sharif was regarded as a safeguarding risk even before she was born.

Please explain what you actually mean by reluctance to discuss specific issues with regard to safeguarding.

Anniebach

Growstuff you started this thread , the murder of a small child and wondered what the religion of the murderer is.

You misunderstood my OP.