Bring it on Elon!

For the UK a “mixed” economy went out of the window with Thatcher, now we are far too much focused on services and import. Labour’s policy is to try to redress that by encouraging more enterprise, which is a big step forward from Tory policy of giveaways to those that didn’t need it.
I wish them well, judging by the reaction we are getting from voters they will struggle to make an impact before the next election.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

MayBee70

I actually feel ashamed to be a member of a forum that includes members that eulogise people like Musk and Trump and limited companies like Reform in their various incarnations…

And yet here you are.

I'm not ashamed.

I just accept that I have a different viewpoint from the OP.
It's not a one-sided, extremist forum and it seems to be democratic.

The Christmas party chat included the differences between the UK and China and one point was that we live in a democracy and the Chinese do not. Apparently China just gets on and does things…, building, manufacturing etc. Here democracy allows for continuous overthrow of previous government’s plans - be it building 40 hospitals (or not), reversing Brexit etc. in the name of democracy?
The consensus was that Conservatives really messed up and give the Labour government 2 to 3 years before we can judge!!

PoliticsNerd

Don't worry MaizieD, I'm sure we are all busy but will have time to chat after Christmas.

I'm not sure "attack" is correct. Surely theories are there to be criticised. That way they they can be proved, disproved and/or developed.

I have always understood that Smith's views support a system that incorporates elements of both free markets and government intervention. This aligns with the concept of a mixed economy. I would have thought that patently excludes moving to either extreme.

I think Adam Smith was right then and is right now - if you want a mixed economy. But clearly not everyone does.

I agree with you about Adam Smith but his adherents in organisations such as the Adam Smith Institute tend to ignore the government intervention (regulation) aspect and to ignore the moral dimension he introduces in his work.

I'm all in favour of a mixed economy. MMT accords perfectly well with a mixed economy as it is basically a description of how state funding actually works, not a theory of how to run an economy.

The fact that all our money (apart from foreign earnings) emanates from the state can be used by parties of any colour to further their own particular ends. Look how the money the state created during covid was used by the tories to funnel it up to their friends and donors.

Incidentally, there is a fascinating section in the Wealth of Nations about how banking contributed to the improvement of the Scottish economy by what was basically money creation as bankers lent out far more 'money' than was actually covered by the gold reserves they held.

Don't worry MaizieD, I'm sure we are all busy but will have time to chat after Christmas.

I'm not sure "attack" is correct. Surely theories are there to be criticised. That way they they can be proved, disproved and/or developed.

I have always understood that Smith's views support a system that incorporates elements of both free markets and government intervention. This aligns with the concept of a mixed economy. I would have thought that patently excludes moving to either extreme.

I think Adam Smith was right then and is right now - if you want a mixed economy. But clearly not everyone does.

PoliticsNerd

Slaves eventually rebel David49. Or do you think uprisings and wars are a reasonable price to pay for the individuals success under extreme capitalism?

China is a prime example of how extremists from either side meet at the same point.

They would have rebelled long ago, if there weren’t party spies in every street making sure nobody disobeyed instructions, the few that tried either disappeared or were sent to re-education camps.

David49

MaizieD

P.S Have the critics ever heard of J M Keynes? Also a revered figure in the economic world?

Economic theories that have not benefited the UK for at least 50yrs although they have benefited China, US, Korea and others.

The UK abandoned Keynes int the late 1970s and embraced Hayek and Friedman. That's why we're in the mess we're in now.

The US did too, though Biden's recent economic policies, which have been successful, owed more to Keynes than they did to Hayek and Friedman.

Slaves eventually rebel David49. Or do you think uprisings and wars are a reasonable price to pay for the individuals success under extreme capitalism?

China is a prime example of how extremists from either side meet at the same point.

MaizieD

P.S Have the critics ever heard of J M Keynes? Also a revered figure in the economic world?

Economic theories that have not benefited the UK for at least 50yrs although they have benefited China, US, Korea and others.

love0c

Some very strange posts. So will all stay home then. Do not bother to work. Just stay home and collect your benefits. Oh dear. The benefits have run out! I wonder why that is????

What made you think that? What is it a reply to. In itself it's a bit off the wall.

P.S Have the critics ever heard of J M Keynes? Also a revered figure in the economic world?

Oooh, how exciting. Lots of posts criticising my posts about how state financing works. Usually they are mostly ignored. Which is sad for me because I do like to defend a thesis😆

It's sad for me, too, that it has happened 3 days before Christmas when I won't have much time to spare, but I'd be more than happy to continue after Christmas 😂

However, for the time being:

George Carling was absolutely correct. He is just echoing at far greater length what Adam Smith was saying 250 years ago. I don't know about George Carling but Adam Smith is a revered figure in the economic world.

An academic research study for some Christmas reading

www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/public-purpose/sites/bartlett_public_purpose/files/the_self-financing_state_an_institutional_analysis_of_government_expenditure_revenue_collection_and_debt_issuance_operations_in_the_united_kingdom.pdf

There is no such thing as 'traditional economic management'

Remember what happened to Britain when the tories cut government spending savagely post 2010 and has been happening ever since.

That’s true if you are buying goods produced at home, imported goods have contributed nothing to the home economy. Any tax collected on retail is not enough to pay for government services we all demand more of.

Some very strange posts. So will all stay home then. Do not bother to work. Just stay home and collect your benefits. Oh dear. The benefits have run out! I wonder why that is????

The interplay of government finance, capital investment, resources, and labour is vital for national prosperity, and the balance between these elements is crucial David49.

Relying solely on one component, such as capital investment from outside entities, can lead to vulnerabilities, whereas a diverse approach can foster sustained growth and resilience. Any extreme regards half or more of the population as disposable, merely cogs in the other halfs wheel. Reward means different things to different people but by default extremists tend to think they have "earned" the bulk of the reward.

Ohhowwelaughed

FlitterMouse

Richard Murphy?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnYhGD7xNig

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxoF7GuFP5E

Think even Gary Stephenson discredited him

I don't believe that the money supply works that way but I am open minded as to why.

Can we show any country that works this way.

It must be a country that works that way successfully though. Taking home your wages in a wheelbarrow and still being unable to feed your family doesn't count.

A licence to print money still needs to make or import the goods and services which that extra money will buy. If the value of all the extra bits of printed paper goes down because of the over-supply of them, the users of them don't benefit.

Money is just the value of the goods or services you can exchange for it. When you pretend it has value of itself you soon learn that you can't actually eat a ten-pound note unless you are a bookworm.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

MayBee70

I actually feel ashamed to be a member of a forum that includes members that eulogise people like Musk and Trump and limited companies like Reform in their various incarnations…

And yet here you are.

Really, how unpleasant.

PoliticsNerd

Extreme anything cannot work for the majority David49.

Extreme capitalism is no better than extreme socialism but, of course, keeping a balance is more difficult and people want only to hear how easy things are going to be.

Extreme Capitalists tell us just how easy things will be if we only follow their path. Extreme Socialists do the same. Both infantilise the voter but then, many voters are happy with that.

Extreme capitalism is exactly what China relies on, their cheap labour resource could not have been employed without it. Because their Labour force is strictly controlled they have become the second largest economy, sucking investment from other countries including the US.

David49

The Magic Money Tree exists so that governments can create money to meet the demands of the population without them having to work for it. Even the US borrows much more than its annual GDP it keep the population happy, it relies on the capitalists to provide the finance to expand the economy. Because the US dollar is the reserve currency gives them a big advantage, they also have a large national resource base, they are not tied to importing if prices are high.

Prosperity of a nation depends on exploiting resources, Labour, Minerals, Food, Energy, if they depend on capitalists to provide the finance they have to be rewarded, that is even true of communist China they could not have industrialized without foreign capitalists.

This is how I feel it works which is great until the capitalists do not want to fund it anymore.

MayBee70
Would you prefer the alternative? China, North Korea where you all have one opinion.

The Magic Money Tree exists so that governments can create money to meet the demands of the population without them having to work for it. Even the US borrows much more than its annual GDP it keep the population happy, it relies on the capitalists to provide the finance to expand the economy. Because the US dollar is the reserve currency gives them a big advantage, they also have a large national resource base, they are not tied to importing if prices are high.

Prosperity of a nation depends on exploiting resources, Labour, Minerals, Food, Energy, if they depend on capitalists to provide the finance they have to be rewarded, that is even true of communist China they could not have industrialized without foreign capitalists.

MayBee70

I actually feel ashamed to be a member of a forum that includes members that eulogise people like Musk and Trump and limited companies like Reform in their various incarnations…

And yet here you are.

Extreme anything cannot work for the majority David49.

Extreme capitalism is no better than extreme socialism but, of course, keeping a balance is more difficult and people want only to hear how easy things are going to be.

Extreme Capitalists tell us just how easy things will be if we only follow their path. Extreme Socialists do the same. Both infantilise the voter but then, many voters are happy with that.

Of course, but many find that hard to accept whilst gorging on all the comforts just like the rest of us. A lot of hypocrisy around.

The American Dream, or indeed the UK dream is a hell of a lot better than the war and corruption that migrants are fleeing. Its the capitalist system that has given us the comforts we enjoy at the expense of the workers in Vietnam, India, China that produce all the tat that we are addicted to.