Much of today's display of 'performance politics' may appear to yield results, but ultimately, it's unlikely that these promises will come to fruition. Signing public documents or holding photo opportunities in no way guarantees the passage of these bills and policies. However, this facade is what Trump supporters will initially remember. Like many Brexit supporters who have come to realise that getting what they wanted has not improved their lives or, in fact, led to nothing being done, some may eventually move towards authoritarianism.
Winston Churchill famously said that a democracy requires an informed voter. Unfortunately, too many people are either misinformed or uninformed. Those who are uninformed are, by default, the most susceptible to manipulation. My initial optimism about the potential of Citizens' Juries to empower citizens and foster informed debate now seems misplaced, as they have become mired in the complexities of government.
So, how can we, as individuals and as a society, work towards becoming better informed?
Sago
Whitewavemark2
My point is that if someone admires Trump, Musk et Al then I think that you can assume that they are fascist supporters, who would vote for a Nazi party, - not uneducated.
That is most offensive and inflammatory.
I would like you to ask admin to remove that post.
You have gone too far.
I have read that Musk supports neo Nazi organisations…
Oh great another thread calling people thick and nazis. What a brilliant tactic, works every time.
Elon Musk held a live event on his social media platform X on Thursday with a leader of the German anti-immigrant, far-right political party Alternative for Germany (AfD), the latest step in the tech billionaire’s campaign to rally support behind reactionary candidates across Europe and North America.
Musk, the wealthiest person in the world, spent more than an hour speaking with Alice Weidel, co-leader of AfD, giving the anti-immigrant party a high-profile boost ahead of the national elections scheduled for next month.
The free publicity from Musk was a potential boon for AfD, which has been frozen out of mainstream German politics, in part, because its leaders have downplayed Nazi atrocities. The country’s domestic intelligence agencies are monitoring the AfD for extremism, and a German court upheld the surveillance last year, finding that some AfD members favor a two-tier society in which “ethnic” Germans are given more rights than people from immigrant backgrounds.
The conversation between Musk and Weidel was generally friendly, a dynamic that Weidel said was unusual for her.
“It’s a completely new situation for me that I just can have a normal conversation and I’m not interrupted or negatively framed,” she said. She called Musk a “visionary.”
Since purchasing X, then known as Twitter, in 2022, Musk has transformed the app into a megaphone for his own politics, helping to propel the comeback last year of President-elect Donald Trump. Musk has also reinstated the accounts of previously suspended neo-Nazis and allowed them to flourish on the platform, including with premium privileges and the opportunity to share in ad revenue and sell subscriptions.
More than 100,000 accounts were listening to the audio-only chat at any given time and, in all, more than 11 million accounts viewed the X post where the discussion took place, according to metrics on X. It wasn’t clear how many of the accounts were in Germany.
The event could have regulatory consequences for X in Europe. On Tuesday, the Party of European Socialists protested against Musk’s plans in a statement and asked the European Union to “use all the legal means available to protect democracy against misinformation and foreign interference on social media.” X is already under investigation for potential violations of the union’s Digital Services Act.
X did not immediately respond to a request for comment on the potential fallout.
Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sánchez said Wednesday that the “ultra right” was being led “by the richest man on the planet” — referencing the Tesla and SpaceX CEO without naming him directly — and he alleged that the movement “incites hatred and openly supports the heirs of Nazism in Germany.”
Musk, during the chat, said that to him, AfD’s positions were “just common sense” and he cited the party’s views on energy policy and reducing immigration. He acknowledged, though, that he and AfD disagree on the value of solar energy, with Musk as a major proponent and AfD wanting to cut back.
Musk’s Tesla has a major factory outside Berlin, and the company has battled local opposition as it tries to expand its footprint.
Yes as Clinton said they lose all control if they cant control social media. Way too late to worry about that of course.
Controlling social media sounds quite a fascist move to me.
There may be many academics or many who received a higher education who also have no interest whatsoever in Shakespeare's tragedies or the economic theories of Victorian pundits or the spread of archaic Indo-European languages either.
Someone who did not have the privilege of a higher education just might, though.
In reply to the OP's question at the end of their post, I don't have an immediate answer, but I think this issue has now got worse due to (1) certain newspapers with their simplistic populist headlines and articles and (2) social media, where so much misinformation is written and then goes viral.
As the few checks that there were carried out on these platforms are going to be stopped by media moguls sucking up to Trump I fear that even more lies are going to be written on social media as if they were factual. Look what happened when misinformation about the young man accused of murdering the Southport children being a Muslim immigrant or asylum seeker (I can't remember exactly which) - yes, widespread riots on our streets and mindless vandalism and damage to property.
No Government seems to want to stand up to social media moguls who enable so much libellous material on their platforms and are happy to take away the fact checkers as their paybill will reduce and their massive profits will increase. I also fear that the reason for the worsening of children's mental health lies with social media. It is the Government's duty to protect children from harmful material and I know that the Online Safety Bill (which I am not familiar with) is designed to help with that.
Another issue is that people believe what they want to believe if it suits their point of view and don't like to be shown that something they believe is misinformation. They will often resist even listening to another point of view.
Unfortunately all this erodes trust in politics and politicians who have been seen to lie, take handouts from rich donors and bow to the social media moguls who are having a field day and laughing all the way to the bank. If people no longer trust politicians that is a threat to our democracy.
In case anyone thinks that I want to abandon freedom of speech they would be wrong. They should remember that racism and inciting racial hatred (just one example) might be regarded as freedom of speech and that laws exist to curb such behaviour, so freedom of speech is not an absolute right.
keepingquiet
It's quite simple: education. I was interested to see Justine Greening on Celebrity Mastermind yesterday.
She is the ONLY one time education secretary who was educated in a local comprehensive school.
This tells you everything about the ingrained privilege of the real establishment in this country.
She now works to raise expectations in working class children to achieve more than being nail technicians or warehouse workers.
I am not a Tory and always thought Justine was in the wrong party but it was refreshing to see and hear this.
The current education minister, Bridget Phillipson went to the local Catholic high school, it’s now an academy. She went to Oxford
One thing guaranteed about politics is disillusionment
I absolutely agree with this, but I don’t agree with your other statement. The one which quite rightly has been taken down.
Galaxy
Yes as Clinton said they lose all control if they cant control social media. Way too late to worry about that of course.
Controlling social media sounds quite a fascist move to me.
Like the USA is doing with TikTok then?
Well surprisingly I dont think that's a great idea either, and I loathe Tik Tok
eazybee
Whitewavemark2
Your assumptions about the beliefs of people who admire Trump are not only immensely patronising but also display an extremely narrow view of the electorate.
Nothing new. It was ever thus.
I’ve been a bit busy, - and had forgotten this thread, but I am back now.
What I was saying was much more nuanced than many posters seem to think.
I answered the original OP by saying that in my opinion the OPs argument was weak because in my opinion, Trump and Musk supporters were very informed.
Quite the opposite to suggesting that they were thick.
I then gave the opinion that because they were informed and supporting Trump and Musk would therefore tend to support neo-Nazi groups or the far right, because those they support do. It makes no sense imo to deny this.
Today Trump had released members of these groups - white supremicists, neo-Nazis and the like, sentenced to serve many years in prison because of their part in the insurrection on J6.
What they did on J6 was one of the most serious threats to democracy that the USA has ever suffered from members of its populace,
Musk is in turn giving active support to the German Nazi Party as well as the Austrian.
I ask myself if I would be willing to support these two high profile leaders if I was American, and the answer is an emphatic “no” . Why? Because history has taught me where it leads. The character of the movement is different - of course- but the outcome could all too easily be the same. Remember what next Monday is, and understand that it began by identifying people who were unwanted members of that society, blaming them for many ills, claiming that they were (often) mentally ill or criminals. The rhetoric is not so different. Throw in the expansionist rhetoric and threats of military violence and it is not so different imo. Even down to Church Kitchen and children, it is all too familiar.
We shall see, the next few years will be a real test of democracy in America.
Thank you GN for reinstating my post. Sometimes we are all to quick to take offence where none is intended, perhaps we should all learn to take a deep breath and ask the poster exactly what they meant before flying off a report.
sago pax😊
How about before we all go off in a huff or puff, we ask each other exactly what they mean by their post if we think it is wrong or inflammatory? It would make for a much more reasonable debate.
And yet I see many fascist elements in those who want to control speech, in those who want to deny reality and force others to accept those beliefs, those who would say Males should be in spaces with vulnerable women, and that's before I start on the children. I ask myself if I could vote for people who supported those terrible beliefs, the answer is no.
Whitewavemark2
My point is that if someone admires Trump, Musk et Al then I think that you can assume that they are fascist supporters, who would vote for a Nazi party, - not uneducated.
Nope, it’s still a stupid statement and untrue.
Many people in the US voted for Trump, millions and millions and some here and in other countries like him too, you cannot really believe that they are all really ‘fascist supporters who would vote for a Nazi Party’.
Having been given the benefit of the doubt and having a post reinstated doesn’t mean that it’s either true or right.
Whitewavemark2
How about before we all go off in a huff or puff, we ask each other exactly what they mean by their post if we think it is wrong or inflammatory? It would make for a much more reasonable debate.
Your post is crystal clear.
Of course it doesn’t make my post true or correct, but it does recognise my right to say it.
No I think that my post was probably clumsily put, and I hope I’ve made it more clear in my subsequent posts.
I do think that there are groups of Supporters In America who will have fascist tendencies, and yes support Nazi policies.
I think that I will stop now as I’m sure politicsnerd never intended this thread to develop in the way it has.
You may need to work on your predictions then! They are worse than mine and I thought Harris would win.
Galaxy
You may need to work on your predictions then! They are worse than mine and I thought Harris would win.
Do you mean me?
If so I’m not sure what you mean?
Yes, predicting that the OP didnt think the thread would develop in this way. I think it was obvious that it would.
Whitewavemark2
Of course it doesn’t make my post true or correct, but it does recognise my right to say it.
No I think that my post was probably clumsily put, and I hope I’ve made it more clear in my subsequent posts.
I do think that there are groups of Supporters In America who will have fascist tendencies, and yes support Nazi policies.
I think that I will stop now as I’m sure politicsnerd never intended this thread to develop in the way it has.
There definitely are groups of fascist supporters in the US. The Proud Boys is one, a number of them were in prison for their part in the Capitol Riot, and they have been released today.
Oh I see. Oh well.
Can you predict after the event😊😊
Galaxy
Oh great another thread calling people thick and nazis. What a brilliant tactic, works every time.
You forgot to add far right.
That, along with the words you mention seems to the current term being used for If you don’t agree with me then you must be . . .
There is nothing at all wrong with being a nail technician or a warehouse worker.
However, such positions carry very little power and influence, both as individuals and within society as a whole and have limited opportunities for career progression. Their pay is usually not that good either. Being poor is not much fun.
It is obviously right that young people who have the potential to achieve in a particular field, whether it be academic or practical, should be able to pursue those talents. But I think it is unfair that people who are doing jobs that are essential are often poorly paid. Why do we have so many highly paid people in jobs or running businesses, that are not essential and which, in some cases, are damaging to society - for example, the betting and advertising industry.
As for the spectacle of Trump and Musk - the world is surely becoming madder and more dangerous than ever.
Eloethan
There is nothing at all wrong with being a nail technician or a warehouse worker.
However, such positions carry very little power and influence, both as individuals and within society as a whole and have limited opportunities for career progression. Their pay is usually not that good either. Being poor is not much fun.
It is obviously right that young people who have the potential to achieve in a particular field, whether it be academic or practical, should be able to pursue those talents. But I think it is unfair that people who are doing jobs that are essential are often poorly paid. Why do we have so many highly paid people in jobs or running businesses, that are not essential and which, in some cases, are damaging to society - for example, the betting and advertising industry.
As for the spectacle of Trump and Musk - the world is surely becoming madder and more dangerous than ever.
Because the UK is not a communist state.
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