Ukraine- the situation is VERY serious

Only Poland, according to Vance, honour their commitment which is why his first meeting is there. From his own mouth.

Casdon

woodenspoon

Casdon

The UK spent more than it’s agreed NATO percentage last year, and is continuing to increase its commitment year on year woodenspoon.

I know that! Other countries are not. We will be paying the lions share, as always.

There’s no need to exaggerate, we don’t pay the lions share? We just pay what we should. Some countries pay a higher percentage than we do, too. I’m sure those European countries which pay less than their share will come into line sharpish too now this has happened.

I’m not exaggerating Casdon. It’s online at bbc. A meeting between Vance and Lammy. France and Germany don’t pay their share. This will be a wake up call for the nations who want the protection afforded by America but don’t want to pay for it.

Latest statistics I could find on % of GDP sent to NATO by member states.

woodenspoon

Casdon

The UK spent more than it’s agreed NATO percentage last year, and is continuing to increase its commitment year on year woodenspoon.

I know that! Other countries are not. We will be paying the lions share, as always.

There’s no need to exaggerate, we don’t pay the lions share? We just pay what we should. Some countries pay a higher percentage than we do, too. I’m sure those European countries which pay less than their share will come into line sharpish too now this has happened.

Claremont

Having USA nuclear bases in the UK makes us target number 1

No they don't, Putin doesn't give a toss whether we have nuclear bases of not. We will be close to the top of Putins bomb list because of who we are and what we represent.

Claremont

Having USA nuclear bases in the UK makes us target number 1

You are incorrect Claremont

The USA has tactical nuclear weapons sited in five NATO countries Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey.

Currently none are sited in the UK.

Defence spending and Ukraine were on the agenda when David Lammy met JD Vance on the sidelines of the Munich Security Conference this morning.
The vice-president has told reporters the UK foreign secretary agreed that "Europe should take a bigger role in its own security".
And Lammy says the UK is "committed to increasing defence and encourage our friends across Europe to do the same".

Casdon

The UK spent more than it’s agreed NATO percentage last year, and is continuing to increase its commitment year on year woodenspoon.

I know that! Other countries are not. We will be paying the lions share, as always.

I agree that Putin invaded Ukraine because he knows how weak Europe and Nato are. He knew Ukraine would not be allowed into EU because of fear of the EU having to defend Ukraine against Putin.
Trump also realises the weakness but is what we read/hear on the news the full picture? Surely even Trump would not cut out Zelensky in any peace negotiations? I really find this hard to believe but if true then imo we should unite with the EU against Putin but that puts us in a very vulnerable position now we are outside the EU.

@Grantanow Nato is not the same as the EU.

The UK spent more than it’s agreed NATO percentage last year, and is continuing to increase its commitment year on year woodenspoon.

Having USA nuclear bases in the UK makes us target number 1

If European countries increased their defence spending, the Americans might well reconsider. As always, it’s the money. Trump is a business man, he sees it from that viewpoint. Funding Europe gains Americans very little. Money that could be spent elsewhere. After all, as he sees it, America and Russia aren’t at war.

Putin must never be allowed to been seen as winning this war - if he does it will spark further land grabs - NATO needs to accept Ukraine as a member as part of any negotiation. The sooner Trump is gone the better - the man is a guilty of condoning genocide and happily displacing people who have no wish to move from their homeland - he is an utter disgrace to humanity

“So, if the US truly want to take this to its natural conclusion I would advise them to get their bases the hell out of the UK and Europe. Europe should unite in defending themselves against Russia and the US.”

Not so fast, thats going to need Europe trebling its defence spending, that’s not going to happen so no point discussing it. NATO is dependant on the US for most of its nuclear deterrent and its conventional reserves, of which the UK has very little.

Iam64

David49

Casdon

How did you make the leap from me disputing your version of events to telling me what my view is?

OK so would you support the UK backing Ukraine 100% boots on the ground accepting the cost and losses

A simple yes or no answer will do.

Good job you aren’t involved in peace talks David

Quite, Iam64. Nobody takes well to having words put in their mouth and then given a yes/no option.

David49

Casdon

How did you make the leap from me disputing your version of events to telling me what my view is?

OK so would you support the UK backing Ukraine 100% boots on the ground accepting the cost and losses

A simple yes or no answer will do.

Good job you aren’t involved in peace talks David

David49

Casdon

How did you make the leap from me disputing your version of events to telling me what my view is?

OK so would you support the UK backing Ukraine 100% boots on the ground accepting the cost and losses

A simple yes or no answer will do.

A simple yes or no answer doesn’t cut it. A lot of tough negotiation is needed before the absolutes become clear for each side. It depends then on what those absolutes impede in terms of agreement. Only a fool would commit themselves to boots on the ground before understanding the whole picture.

If you look up what countries actually pay in I think some of the difference is about what they can afford.

I only seriously thought about this last year when I finally "got" that 2% of very little may be much more significant than 5% of a lot.

It's all relative.
And calculated differently.
I did read a couple of papers on this but don't trust myself to remember it. It's not there if you are interested.

...of course fairness is not one of Trump's strong points!

Casdon

How did you make the leap from me disputing your version of events to telling me what my view is?

OK so would you support the UK backing Ukraine 100% boots on the ground accepting the cost and losses

A simple yes or no answer will do.

Which will cost Europe more money than they are willing to pay.

The US pays more to NATO for a reason, because up until Trump became President it was seen as a necessary buffer against arch enemy Russia, and the US wanted bases in European countries and funded them accordingly for the same reason, it was never a question of largesse on behalf of the US. Now, however, it doesn’t seem to matter very much whether Russia has expansionist desires, because the US are defanging Ukraine and by opposing NATO or refusing to pay into it, are defanging Europe as well.
So, if the US truly want to take this to its natural conclusion I would advise them to get their bases the hell out of the UK and Europe. Europe should unite in defending themselves against Russia and the US.

As always, it boils down to money. America resents paying money to defend Europe. Apparently only Poland pay their fare share. Other European countries do not. This is sabre rattling to make sure the European countries pay up and, as Hegseth put it not to rely on Uncle Sucker. Wars are always about money. Selling arms, death and total destruction, rebuilds. This is not 1939, the world has moved on. Trump, for all his faults, sees no point in bailing out European nations any longer.

Good point. Trump has to convince all that its a lasting peace with viable back up in place.

They can only defend themselves.. they would easily be overwhelmed by Russia.. Much better for Ukraine to be part of NATO and have the full force of 30 countries behind it..