Ukraine- the situation is VERY serious

Taxes will have to go up and whatever RR said in October last year am convinced they will soon be going up.They need to in any case to get good public services.

Of course it means the UK too Claremont as we’re part of Europe.
In or out of the EU we would have to pay more towards NATO and beef up our own military services and pay any US tariffs that are imposed.

Whitewavemark2

“European leaders are scrambling to respond to what looks like the end of reliable US protection of the continent. It is unclear what the “main European countries” (which includes the UK) might be able to agree at a hastily convened meeting in Paris on Monday February 17. But individual countries, including the UK and Germany, have come forward to put concrete offers on the table for Ukraine’s security, which could include putting their troops on the ground.”

Article in The Conversation.

Well, it’s off the table today.

Oreo

Casdon

I think you’re misrepresenting the contributions David49. It is true that the USA spends more than its NATO allies, but that is partly because as a global superpower it also has interests outside Europe?

The US have been complaining for years about the amounts that Europe put into the pot.I think this time, with the way that Trump operates, they will at last start to cough up more.

And that means the UK too. The country is in a mess, everything to be built up again after the disastrous decade +. Brexit has scuppered the country, and now we will have huge issues with US tariffs on top. And as we are 'going it alone' in so many ways, again due to Brexit, we will have to spend a lot more, on our own military and towards Nato.

So where will the money come from? Which service will it be taken away from? NHS, education. social services, police?

“European leaders are scrambling to respond to what looks like the end of reliable US protection of the continent. It is unclear what the “main European countries” (which includes the UK) might be able to agree at a hastily convened meeting in Paris on Monday February 17. But individual countries, including the UK and Germany, have come forward to put concrete offers on the table for Ukraine’s security, which could include putting their troops on the ground.”

Article in The Conversation.

Oreo

Casdon

I think you’re misrepresenting the contributions David49. It is true that the USA spends more than its NATO allies, but that is partly because as a global superpower it also has interests outside Europe?

The US have been complaining for years about the amounts that Europe put into the pot.I think this time, with the way that Trump operates, they will at last start to cough up more.

Yes, I was just pointing out that saying that ‘Europe has a similar population and pays much less’ isn’t a straightforward equation, it’s comparing apples and pears.

Casdon

I think you’re misrepresenting the contributions David49. It is true that the USA spends more than its NATO allies, but that is partly because as a global superpower it also has interests outside Europe?

The US have been complaining for years about the amounts that Europe put into the pot.I think this time, with the way that Trump operates, they will at last start to cough up more.

Whitewavemark2

I read this morning that Germany was in favour of a peacekeeping force? I must dig it up and look again.

We have, in the past spent a much larger % of our GDP on defence alongside reasonable spending on our public services. We can do it again.

I don’t know where you read that, but the BBC site said this morning that Germany said more or less ‘nothing doing old chum’ or words to that effect.The truth is Europe isn’t keen on going in there, for peacekeeping or anything else.Starmer may be on his own in the peacekeeping stakes.Anyway, Lavrov said today that Russia won’t countenance any NATO soldiers in Ukraine as part of a deal.Nobody is asking poor Zelensky what his red lines are.

I think you’re misrepresenting the contributions David49. It is true that the USA spends more than its NATO allies, but that is partly because as a global superpower it also has interests outside Europe?

We all want peace I’m sure but at what cost and will the peace last.

I listen to the news and think about Mediation. In domestic conflicts, no one would put the abused party in the same room as the abuser

I wish I was confident this is why Trump and co are inviting the abuser to negotiate, whilst excluding the victim

IOMGran

Ladyleftfieldlover

My immediate reaction from reading today’s news is that we must choose Europe. We are part of Europe even if not in the EU anymore. trump is abandoning Europe. There are difficult days ahead.

Yes, we need to rejoin the EU and get serious about defending Europe. We also need to find other allies. Can I suggest Canada and Mexico for starters and I personally think that the EU should seek closer ties with China as the USA is an ally you cannot depend on.

Trump isn’t abandoning Europe or NATO, he wants to reduce the cost the US pays, Europe has a similar population and pays much less.
Ukraine is different he believes escalating the war is too risky too costly so the sooner a settlement is made the better and will save lives. I agree with that opinion, it’s in nobody’s interest to continue fighting, trying to isolate Russia has failed.

GrannyGravy13 I totally get your points in your post 12:14: post.

That said, there is something utterly obscene about a headline and article nakedly promoting opportunities to profit from other people's (and potentially our own) misery. Even more so at a time when our evenings are full of news reports of so many people suffering the world over.

Ladyleftfieldlover

My immediate reaction from reading today’s news is that we must choose Europe. We are part of Europe even if not in the EU anymore. trump is abandoning Europe. There are difficult days ahead.

Yes, we need to rejoin the EU and get serious about defending Europe. We also need to find other allies. Can I suggest Canada and Mexico for starters and I personally think that the EU should seek closer ties with China as the USA is an ally you cannot depend on.

Allira

Churchview

Daily Mail online is running an article under the following headline. I honestly didn't think it was possible for them to stoop any lower, but there they go.

"How to profit from WAR: the stocks to consider buying as the world re-arms, from great British companies to little-known European firms that could make you a FORTUNE in uncertain times."

As it's behind a paywall, you must be subscribing to the Daily Mail, Churchview! 🤔

I certainly don't subscribe to the DM Allira.

In the address bar on my laptop I have a 'Toggle Reader View' button that allows me to read the article, but not see any pictures.

I like to read as widely as I can, even the DM and it's possible to do so without paying any money to the absolute toilets.

Tax was higher then of course.

Whitewavemark2

I read this morning that Germany was in favour of a peacekeeping force? I must dig it up and look again.

We have, in the past spent a much larger % of our GDP on defence alongside reasonable spending on our public services. We can do it again.

Not with the public services we demand today, it’s either/or unless taxation is increased

It’s all diplomacy and discussions. There will be different views but we hope consensus

I think Germany were a bit annoyed about talk of peacekeeping forces. Slightly premature.

I read this morning that Germany was in favour of a peacekeeping force? I must dig it up and look again.

We have, in the past spent a much larger % of our GDP on defence alongside reasonable spending on our public services. We can do it again.

Those in the armed forces have chosen to make it a career.

At least we don’t have conscription, where people have no choice.

Whitewavemark2

So the three biggest countries in Europe are in agreement regarding a peacekeeping force.

Poland has said it wouldn’t put its troops into Ukraine (for obvious reasons) but will provide backup services. Spain has its own reason (the threat or not of tariffs on energy) to prevaricate, although it hasn’t closed the door entirely on ukraine, merely shelved it for the time. Italy presents no surprises given its far right politics at present. Belgium and Holland are strong supporters of Ukraine and will almost certainly support the peacekeeping force.

So whilst a relatively mixed picture, it isn’t a disaster by any means and a good base from which to start.

Did you watch Newsnight last night WWM? It looks like Germany isn't agreeing with Starmer.. and we will need to raise our defence budget to the sort of level (anywhere up to 5%) that the NHS and Welfare Benefits would be substantially deprived.. It's going to take some tough negotiating to try to keep US on board or UK will be really badly hit..

LizzieDrip

Churchview

Daily Mail online is running an article under the following headline. I honestly didn't think it was possible for them to stoop any lower, but there they go.

"How to profit from WAR: the stocks to consider buying as the world re-arms, from great British companies to little-known European firms that could make you a FORTUNE in uncertain times."

It’s obscene isn’t it!

War generates a lot of income, unsavoury but a fact.

It is preferable that a wholly U.K. owned company profits or the general public via investments than a foreign conglomerate.

Personally I am all for large, expertly trained and well equipped armed forces as a deterrent, than the alternative of sending troops into war.

We have family members in the armed forces including eldest AS, it is worrying times for all armed forces families.

It does surprise me that anybody would think it would be possible for Poland to be a full part of a defence force for Ukraine when it already has to permanently site many of its troops on its own border with Russia - which is a huge threat to them. There are a lot of US troops on that border too, which is a worry when they withdraw.

So the three biggest countries in Europe are in agreement regarding a peacekeeping force.

Poland has said it wouldn’t put its troops into Ukraine (for obvious reasons) but will provide backup services. Spain has its own reason (the threat or not of tariffs on energy) to prevaricate, although it hasn’t closed the door entirely on ukraine, merely shelved it for the time. Italy presents no surprises given its far right politics at present. Belgium and Holland are strong supporters of Ukraine and will almost certainly support the peacekeeping force.

So whilst a relatively mixed picture, it isn’t a disaster by any means and a good base from which to start.

LizzieDrip

NotSpaghetti

Churchview this is what Trump wants I think.
He wants us to up our war budgets by buying American weapons.

If we do have to buy more weapons, I sincerely hope we can buy them from anywhere other than America!

And not from Israel either!