Surely we must pay more taxes!?

but can you explain to me why it is fair that some people contribute to a societal system on a compulsory basis, whilst others get the same benefits without having to do so?

I really can't, Doodledog. I thought I had made that clear. All I can do is look at a messy, ad hoc 'designed system and accept that it might be the best we can get.

I'll ask you a question. How do you feel about people in receipt of only unearned income, from savings interest, dividends, rentals and payments from trusts, not paying any NI contributions but still being entitled to the benefits supposedly 'paid for' by way of NICs?

keepingquiet

Taxation is older than the hills- long before the Industrial revolution introduced the capitalist system.

Well, this system needs fixing, though I have no real answer.

No one has been able to fix it yet- the only inescapable things about being human are death and taxes... someone said it, can't remember who.

MaizieD

^but can you explain to me why it is fair that some people contribute to a societal system on a compulsory basis, whilst others get the same benefits without having to do so?^

I really can't, Doodledog. I thought I had made that clear. All I can do is look at a messy, ad hoc 'designed system and accept that it might be the best we can get.

I'll ask you a question. How do you feel about people in receipt of only unearned income, from savings interest, dividends, rentals and payments from trusts, not paying any NI contributions but still being entitled to the benefits supposedly 'paid for' by way of NICs?

I would like to find a way of taxing that, too.

It's not that I'm channeling the Sheriff of Nottingham - just that as things stand, things are very unfair, particularly to those who have no choice but to work for a living. The cry of 'We are entitled to have choices' seems ironic to me, when so many people don't.

I think it will always be ‘unfair’, always has been. Name a country in the world where it isn’t. Some countries, Vietnam for one, don’t help people if they don’t work and those who can’t rely on their families to exist. That is worse because people starve. I think it is better to have ‘unworthy’ people survive as happens in most ‘rich’ countries.

So do I, as I keep saying😀.

It is very frustrating to have to see seeing insinuations or direct accusations of wanting to 'force' people into work, of not valuing the time that mothers have with young children, of wanting to let people work or starve. I don't support any of those things, and nor do I blame anyone for taking advantage of the system that exists at the time. I have also said repeatedly that I don't know what would work better in general terms, although there are tweaks that would help.

All I am saying is (as part of a theoretical discussion) that some of the underpinning assumptions - eg that people have a right to choose not to contribute to the things they benefit from really don't bear much scrutiny. They do have that right, but it is at the expense of those who don't have the choices that they do.

nanna8

I think it will always be ‘unfair’, always has been. Name a country in the world where it isn’t. Some countries, Vietnam for one, don’t help people if they don’t work and those who can’t rely on their families to exist. That is worse because people starve. I think it is better to have ‘unworthy’ people survive as happens in most ‘rich’ countries.

Thats also the reality in China too, in the UK we welcome Chinas cheap imports and ignore the lack of rights the workers have.
We live very privileged lives at others expense.

That’s undoubtedly true of some David, but not of those of us who try very hard not to buy Chinese products.

Barleyfields

That’s undoubtedly true of some David, but not of those of us who try very hard not to buy Chinese products.

Sadly we cannot absolve ourself of this, no matter how much we try to avoid buying items made in China.

Chinese manufactured products are in our lives whether we know or not. When I replaced my dishwasher DH insisted I had a Samsung because he has working knowledge of the quality of Korean engineering. When the repair man came round last week, I emntioned this to him. He looked at the small plate fixed to the side of the door, full of codes and numbers and informed me that my 'Korean' dishwasher had in fat been made in China.

If not directly I am sure the food you buy at the supermarket will have been grown on a farm where farm machinery contains, at best Chinese parts, and may be made in China, the same in cars and buses your ride in, medical equipment in your surgery, and the sewing machines used by workers in Vietname, Bangladesh or Cambodia, or anywhere else foor that matter, to make your clothes

David49 is right. We live very privileged lives at others expense. and there is very little we can do about it.

I bought a dog bed for my son’s puppy from a website that made great play of saying how it had started as a family concern in Leeds. It took ages to arrive, and the tracking showed that whilst the registered address of the company is indeed in Leeds, the bed was shipped from China.

Maybe we need a law to insist that all imports have to have easily accessible indicators (luminous stickers or something?) to show their country of origin? That way people could make informed choices.

A lot of money is wasted, and this is where any change has to be made.
Each household in this country has a set income and we have to budget around that. The government should do the same instead of seeing the public as a source of new income.

mum2three

A lot of money is wasted, and this is where any change has to be made.
Each household in this country has a set income and we have to budget around that. The government should do the same instead of seeing the public as a source of new income.

People will never agree on what is ‘wasteful’ though. That is true in a household budget and in government spending.

mum2three

A lot of money is wasted, and this is where any change has to be made.
Each household in this country has a set income and we have to budget around that. The government should do the same instead of seeing the public as a source of new income.

...instead of seeing the public as a source of new income

Where do you think money comes from, mum2three?

Where do you think money comes from, mum2three?

And round and round we go 😂

Doodledog

*Where do you think money comes from, mum2three?*

And round and round we go 😂

I don’t expect any response

MaizieD

Doodledog

Where do you think money comes from, mum2three?

And round and round we go 😂

I don’t expect any response

Money comes from those who are productive and give more back than they consume, paying taxes along the way.
If that isnt enough the government borrows/creates more to fill the gap

Well put David49. Any government has a vested interest in taxes. Where else do their wages come from?

Completely wrong, as usual, David.

mum2three

A lot of money is wasted, and this is where any change has to be made.
Each household in this country has a set income and we have to budget around that. The government should do the same instead of seeing the public as a source of new income.

I'm afraid ordinary folks have always been regarded as a never-ending income source by 'Our Betters'.
Example from history: Bad King John, among all his other sins, taxed his subjects over and over again until his own nobles decided that enough was enough and forced him to sign Magna Carta.

But the practice still goes on - what on earth will the powers-that-be try to tax next?

Mollygo

Well put David49. Any government has a vested interest in taxes. Where else do their wages come from?

Do please explain where the money in circulation in the economy which is used to buy and sell and pay wages and get stashed away in tax havens etc. actually gets there. Does it just grow on trees? Does everyone have a little printing press in the garden shed?

In view of the fact that the economy is one of the most important social and political factors in the way a country is run I do think that knowing where the money comes from is a pretty useful bit of information.

Do share your knowledge about that MaizieD since you obviously already know and therefore need no explanation.

I am politically opposite to MaizieD but I am in agreement when it comes to the economy.

Taxes do not fund spending.

The government cannot owe money to itself.

The economy of a country is nothing like the budget of a household.

I understand that there are different perspectives when it comes to looking at economic theory.

I also understand that if tax paid for nothing there would not be rises and falls in its levels. Nobody wants to pay lots of tax, but we all want decent public services, defence, pensions etc. If we can have those without taxation, why are people taxed - even those on £13k a year?

People are taxed to pay for things, including MP’s wages.

Nothing like a household economy for sure, but it’s just like a business on a massive scale.

A business plans its expenditure some of that is capital already some it will borrow, but it can only do that if lenders are confident it will be repaid with whatever interest is applied. The profit a business makes repays the loan and interest and accumulates more capital so that the business can expand.

Government finances work in exactly the same way, taxation; is the income that provides public services and repays loans. The UK has not reduced its borrowings for many years, when a loan matures it has just been replaced with another, the current interest on the debt is around £100bn a year. A government can create money but that is limited by the confidence of other lenders and traders. They will increase interest rates or reduce the value of the currency (or both) if they don’t have confidence the finance plan is good, as Truss found out.

The BoE very wisely counts QE as borrowing so the money supply, 1/3 of which is QE, is transparent, the current policy is to keep supply tight to control inflation, there is no reason to think there will be much growth in the economy. Finance markets are content for now with the strict public spending plans we have, longer term we have a long way to go to improve the economy enough to relax spending.

There are only 2 ways to control borrowing more taxation or less spending