Surely we must pay more taxes!?

David49

I completely understand why the wealthy posters on GN want to increase income tax and and keep the services free, because they have already had the benefits that system provides and want to continue to benefit from it.

My point of view is that income tax is high enough at 45% plus to increase further is a disincentive for enterprise, those successful individuals can well afford to pay into health insurance or elderly care and certainly don’t need the state pension. Instead of buying a second home, or frequent long haul holidays, or a new luxury car every 3 yrs, they can well afford to well afford to loose state benefits.

That would free up massive public services for those not so fortunate, it is the system used in many countries, if circumstances change and wealth reduces the state system picks up the costs.

Expanding the public spending issues if you think Cameron style austerity was bad, expect worse, to increase defence spending and increase health spending is a massive challenge. There is ample wealth in the UK we are not using it properly, those on low income obviously want universal benefits they NEED it, the wealthy also want it because they FREELOAD on it.

Are you suggesting State Pension should be means tested?

David what I took exception to was you stereotyping better off pensioners as Instead of buying a second home, or frequent long haul holidays, or a new luxury car every 3 yrs, they can well afford to well afford to loose state benefits.

This is such a lazy stereotype and plays into all the other tropes that nowadays seem to want to blame older people for everything from living in houses to big for them, monopolising the NHS, ruining their children's lives in so many ways.

This is very dangerous in the same way that anti-semitism takes a diverse group of people with one characteristic in common and makes them the scapegoat for anything that goes wrong, you are playing into the stereotype that any pensioner not on pension credit is a bloated capitalist determined to keep all their money to themselves and let children starve in the streets.

Avoiding taxation is not the special preocupation of the elderly and comfortably off. There are plenty of rich people of in younger age groups who wish to avoid tax. Many a wealthy a young man changes his car regularly.

Please stop the lazy stereotyping of older people.

Now the downsizing bit, I do kind of agree with.
Sitting on a large property isn't helping anyone, so my solution is/was to sell and pass the proceeds down to the next generation now, so my children are not struggling and can have comfortable lives. As I said before, we all make our choices what we do with our wealth.

David49

Barleyfields

Are you talking about £1m in liquid assets, or £1m in total, including house David? I found your post rather confusing. Would you expect someone to sell their home to pay for a rainy day?

Including the house, you can easily downsize, in fact you should, you dont have the right to sit on a pile like that and use public money.
Currently most of that would be IHT free, if you do go into care that will be taken into account anyway

Agree with you 100%. And I'm not listening to the whinging about the house having been the family home for 70 years etc etc etc blah blah blah. Their choice - they pay for it.

How can there be needs for private medical care? I appreciate all the arguments about the flaws in the NHS. Nevertheless, I dispute that private medical care is needed when most can't afford it. Or are you saying that those who can't afford private medical care will just die - that's the logic if they can't afford something which is needed. I'm not disputing that some people choose private medical care, but don't try pretending that it's needed.

Need and choice/want aren't the same thing.

Likewise, having money will get you a nicer care home, but try kidding anyone that it's needed. It's your choice. Nobody is stopping people making that choice, but don't expect the state/poorer people to subsidise you by letting you off the tax - don't forget most people can't afford your choices - the ones you call needs.

Barleyfields

Are you talking about £1m in liquid assets, or £1m in total, including house David? I found your post rather confusing. Would you expect someone to sell their home to pay for a rainy day?

Including the house, you can easily downsize, in fact you should, you dont have the right to sit on a pile like that and use public money.
Currently most of that would be IHT free, if you do go into care that will be taken into account anyway

David49

M0nica

If we are to maintain, pensions, benefits, services, those that have plenty either have got to be taxed more, or have those benefits etc, reduced or removed. How can anyone defend using public spending to subsidize those that already have enough

I have no problems with your argument just with your cliched representation of better off pensioners^

Older people have quite enough trouble fighting off the ageist lazy stereotypes of what we are and hpw we live. To find people in the older age group accepting them as well is really depressing.

I’m not talking about those wealth is under £1m. There are a lot with mortgage paid off and large pensions who have a very good lifestyle and aim to hand everything over to the next generation, without any taxation.

There is nothing wrong with saving for a rainy day everyone should do it, £1m will pay for a lot of rainy days

How does one arrive at the proper number for a rainy day?

Is there a home mortgage? Are there needs for private medical (which is quite helpful, imo, to the NHS)? Care home cost?

Are you talking about £1m in liquid assets, or £1m in total, including house David? I found your post rather confusing. Would you expect someone to sell their home to pay for a rainy day?

M0nica

^If we are to maintain, pensions, benefits, services, those that have plenty either have got to be taxed more, or have those benefits etc, reduced or removed. How can anyone defend using public spending to subsidize those that already have enough^

I have no problems with your argument just with your cliched representation of better off pensioners^

Older people have quite enough trouble fighting off the ageist lazy stereotypes of what we are and hpw we live. To find people in the older age group accepting them as well is really depressing.

I’m not talking about those wealth is under £1m. There are a lot with mortgage paid off and large pensions who have a very good lifestyle and aim to hand everything over to the next generation, without any taxation.

There is nothing wrong with saving for a rainy day everyone should do it, £1m will pay for a lot of rainy days

A Michael Jackson song comes to mind
'I'm starting with the man in the mirror'

I'm seriously decluttering in anticipation of moving and
the stuff I don't 'need' is shamefull

GrannyGravy13

growstuff

GrannyGravy13

growstuff hoarding? I disagree, I call it saving for retirement or a so called rainy day, we never know what is round the corner.

Gggrrrr! Good for you! I was describing the most efficient use of money for a whole society on a macro scale.

(But I guess some people don't care about the big picture.)

Are you saying that you are against people saving?

If nobody had a rainy day fund how many more do you think would be reliant on the state for their needs in later life?

I am sorry but I really do not understand the mindset of

^some people cannot afford to save, so no one should be allowed to save^

I dont understand this mindset either, it comes across as bitterness towards those with money.

Thank you grannyGravy and Barleyfields

Years ago there was a thread about private medicine. I wrote that I should be able to spend my savings how I wanted. Preferring to have two new hips rather than a new car which I would be unable to drive. When GSM was on GN she said if I put my head above the parapet I would get shot down. And how right she was. People seem more tolerant now to private health care. And me I can get round without difficulty, can drive my car and don’t need any social care or support. Without it I would have been totally dependent.

We've 4 TkR between us - private health care. We drive, we ski, we walk miles a day. Yes, people are more tolerant to private health care.

Gwyllt good to hear you are able to get out and about.

I’m glad to hear that Gwyllt. We surely save to have a cushion against bad times if we can achieve it - needing hip replacements and being dependent on the NHS means years of pain and restrictions, of existing rather than living, and if that’s not a bad time I don’t know what is.

nanna8

We have some friends who are extremely wealthy by anyone’s standards. They are very,very tight with money to the extent it is just laughable. They certainly would and do avoid any tax they can. I guess that is why they are so rich! They pay professionals to tell them how to get round tax laws - and,sadly, it seems to work. I don’t b know if that happens in the UK but I suspect it might.

Did you think the very wealthy sat down with a calculator/ paper and paper once a year. 🤷‍♀️

Barleyfields. How tight you are about personal security. And implying to spend your savings as you wish. A few. Years ago there was a thread about private medicine. I wrote that I should be able to spend my savings how I wanted. Preferring to have two new hips rather than a new car which I would be unable to drive. When GSM was on GN she said if I put my head above the parapet I would get shot down. And how right she was. People seem more tolerant now to private health care. And me I can get round without difficulty, can drive my car and don’t need any social care or support. Without it I would have been totally dependent

growstuff everyone needs a goal, something to aim for.

If we all only worked for our needs, there wouldn’t be entrepreneurs, startups, etc.

I didn’t and still do not need the hassle of owning a SME, I wanted to.

My want employs people which enables them to fulfil their needs and wants.

My wants keep other people employed in other professions. I do not need to go to the hairdresser, I and others do and thereby a hairdresser has a job, I could carry on but I hope you understand.

Having savings is not a want it’s a need in the current global economy.

We are never going to agree on this, but hey ho that’s life.

Barleyfields

growstuff

GrannyGravy13

a small group of people hoard money they don’t really need

growstuff I am quoting you.

I will repeat my answer to you, you might call it hoarding, I and many others call it saving.

How on earth do you know what other people really need , you have no idea of other people’s, outgoings or financial commitments…

They don't need it. They want it - to give them security.

Is there something wrong with having security? A home that won’t be taken away from you, the knowledge that you can pay your bills and replace a domestic appliance or car which packs up, and, if need be, pay for private healthcare rather than going onto, and perhaps dying on, an NHS waiting list and pay for care?

Indeed.

As a point of interest I would ask if one doesn't want security, why not rent? Why not taxi? Why not wait long years for NHS care?

growstuff

GrannyGravy13

a small group of people hoard money they don’t really need

growstuff I am quoting you.

I will repeat my answer to you, you might call it hoarding, I and many others call it saving.

How on earth do you know what other people really need , you have no idea of other people’s, outgoings or financial commitments…

No, I don't ... and I'm not even commenting on the choices people have about how they spend their money ... that's up to them.

Nevertheless, I find it quite disturbing that people really don't seem to know the difference between "want" and "need" Isn't that we tell toddlers?)

Need is about what you require to stay alive. Anything else is want. Unless people have specific medical needs what people actually need is more or less the same.

I actually find it quite amusing that people can't see their own hypocrisy.

I don't think it is up to anyone else to decide people's needs and wants. Who are you to decide for them.
Therein lies Communism.

oh, my last was in response to *Barleyfield’ WRT to cutting foreign aid to pay for defence.

I do disagree. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not a good look when there are plenty of opportunities available to tax the seriously wealthy (and by seriously wealthy I mean a level of wealth that I doubt that anyone on this forum enjoys) who are, in effect, being taxed at *less than the ordinary citizen.

Also, didn’t the tories cut the international aid budget? Has Labour even restored it to its previous level?

It’s one of those contributions to the UK’s ‘soft power’ that I think is foolish to curtail. Particularly with the US pulling out of overseas aid and development.

growstuff

GrannyGravy13

a small group of people hoard money they don’t really need

growstuff I am quoting you.

I will repeat my answer to you, you might call it hoarding, I and many others call it saving.

How on earth do you know what other people really need , you have no idea of other people’s, outgoings or financial commitments…

They don't need it. They want it - to give them security.

Is there something wrong with having security? A home that won’t be taken away from you, the knowledge that you can pay your bills and replace a domestic appliance or car which packs up, and, if need be, pay for private healthcare rather than going onto, and perhaps dying on, an NHS waiting list and pay for care?

It really makes me wonder how people in Gaza and other hell holes survive without the things which so many people seem to think they need. Or homeless people on the street, for that matter.

Maybe Man City player Erling Haaland needs £500,000 a week for the next nine and half years, for all I know.

However, I wouldn't mind betting that there are a fair few who don't think he needs it.