Surely we must pay more taxes!?

growstuff

PoliticsNerd

The middle class are loosing their wealth and disappearing. Governments are effectively bankrupt- spending more than their income each year, going debt and having to sell assets.

So both British workers and the British Government are going increasingly into debt. Where has all the wealth gone?

The rich are growing their wealth rapidly and sucking the wealth from low and particularly middle income families and the government. Passive income grows but does not recycle because it isn't spent. Once you have a group in society with very large passive income, unless you have a rapidly growing economy, they have nothing the can do with that income other than buy the rest of the available assets. The value of assets that would be bought by the middle income, e.g., housing, then becomes out of reach to those on middle incomes.

One person's debt is somebody else's wealth.

It seems more relevant to understand that one person's wealth creates another person's debt, the country's debt and, at some point, depreciating assets.

PoliticsNerd

The middle class are loosing their wealth and disappearing. Governments are effectively bankrupt- spending more than their income each year, going debt and having to sell assets.

So both British workers and the British Government are going increasingly into debt. Where has all the wealth gone?

The rich are growing their wealth rapidly and sucking the wealth from low and particularly middle income families and the government. Passive income grows but does not recycle because it isn't spent. Once you have a group in society with very large passive income, unless you have a rapidly growing economy, they have nothing the can do with that income other than buy the rest of the available assets. The value of assets that would be bought by the middle income, e.g., housing, then becomes out of reach to those on middle incomes.

One person's debt is somebody else's wealth.

and disappearing

The middle class are loosing their wealth and disappearing. Governments are effectively bankrupt- spending more than their income each year, going debt and having to sell assets.

So both British workers and the British Government are going increasingly into debt. Where has all the wealth gone?

The rich are growing their wealth rapidly and sucking the wealth from low and particularly middle income families and the government. Passive income grows but does not recycle because it isn't spent. Once you have a group in society with very large passive income, unless you have a rapidly growing economy, they have nothing the can do with that income other than buy the rest of the available assets. The value of assets that would be bought by the middle income, e.g., housing, then becomes out of reach to those on middle incomes.

growstuff

Norah

Doodledog, Most people are happy enough to contribute their share if they see it as fair. The question is - what is fair for everyone.

There is never going to be an agreement on that! Everybody thinks that what they have was gained fairly and they fight tooth and nail to hang on to it.

Precisely.

Doodledog

Yes, everyone earning over £12.5k would get a tax cut if the nil rate rose to £20k.

Yes, and that would need to be factored into changing rates.

Perhaps actually explain why changing all rates isn't feasible.

Norah

Doodledog, Most people are happy enough to contribute their share if they see it as fair. The question is - what is fair for everyone.

There is never going to be an agreement on that! Everybody thinks that what they have was gained fairly and they fight tooth and nail to hang on to it.

Doodledog, Most people are happy enough to contribute their share if they see it as fair. The question is - what is fair for everyone.

Yes, everyone earning over £12.5k would get a tax cut if the nil rate rose to £20k.

Norah

PoliticsNerd

Norah

Casdon

I doubt that view will garner much sympathy with the majority of voters Barleyfields

No that view won't Garner support from everyone - nothing will. However, it seems an approach that attempts to give everyone something they desire rather than a Robin Hood approach might work.

Thank you Norah. I try but it is an ongoing debate.

I didn't say I agree with your approach.

I don't prefer a Robin Hood approach, I don't worry to wealth inequality. I'd think personal allowance could change to £20k, additional rate could be 50-60%. Perhaps CGT collected on home ownership transfer.

I also think IHT is too low, considering current prices of assets.

Increasing the personal allowance without raising the percentage paid in tax would benefit middle and high earners, in some cases more than the very lowest earners.

My worry is that wealth inequality is pushing people towards extremism. Those who have no choice but to work and pay taxes see others not working and not paying, and resent it. It tends to be the sick and disabled who lose out when it comes to getting more money from taxation, when there should (IMO) be other targets. Most people are happy enough to contribute their share if they see it as fair.

PoliticsNerd

Norah

Casdon

I doubt that view will garner much sympathy with the majority of voters Barleyfields

No that view won't Garner support from everyone - nothing will. However, it seems an approach that attempts to give everyone something they desire rather than a Robin Hood approach might work.

Thank you Norah. I try but it is an ongoing debate.

I didn't say I agree with your approach.

I don't prefer a Robin Hood approach, I don't worry to wealth inequality. I'd think personal allowance could change to £20k, additional rate could be 50-60%. Perhaps CGT collected on home ownership transfer.

I also think IHT is too low, considering current prices of assets.

I didn’t say whether or not I would be affected PN and as I’m not a billionaire how do you expect me to tell you where billionaires’ money goes? However, their money, not my business what they do with it.

Norah

Casdon

I doubt that view will garner much sympathy with the majority of voters Barleyfields

No that view won't Garner support from everyone - nothing will. However, it seems an approach that attempts to give everyone something they desire rather than a Robin Hood approach might work.

Thank you Norah. I try but it is an ongoing debate.

Barleyfields

Always easy to say if you’re not in those top percentiles PN.

I am sorry if you feel this will affect you Barleyfields but the wealth of the UK's billionaires has skyrocketed by over 1000% between 1990 and 2022, ballooning by around £600bn.

Would you like to tell me where this money goes?

Casdon

I doubt that view will garner much sympathy with the majority of voters Barleyfields

No that view won't Garner support from everyone - nothing will. However, it seems an approach that attempts to give everyone something they desire rather than a Robin Hood approach might work.

Of course it won’t. But PN’s suggestion is the same old same old which never happens.

I doubt that view will garner much sympathy with the majority of voters Barleyfields

Always easy to say if you’re not in those top percentiles PN.

Furret

Of course we must all pay more taxes. I’m sick of the moaners who think the NHS, Education, Police etc run on air. That potholes heal themselves and the bins empty themselves.

This is why we are in the mess we are in. Everyone needs to pay up; the wealthy too. They are often paying less pro-rata.

The Numpties that have replaced the Totally Incompetents who in turn replaced The Good Old Boys need to get to grips with reality. The majority of the public know taxes must increase - especially in view of the idiot(s) in the WH and the Mad Man in the Kremlin .

I don't think we can all pay more taxes.

I would agree that we all need to pay National Insurance (with credits for those who can't afford it, as we do now). Even if those who are over the State Pension Age (SPA) pay only a proportion of what they should, they should still contribute.

After that, we are looking at two different areas: local and national taxation. My suggestion for local taxation is to implement a land tax. The current council tax system is very flawed, and the figures it's based on are completely outdated.

I would not suggest more borrowing, as this only perpetuates the trend of the rich getting richer, the middle class being squeezed, and the poor becoming ever poorer.

Instead of borrowing, I propose a surcharge on the "passive" income of the wealthy - specifically, the top 1% or top 5%, or similar. This approach will generate funds to support growth, including increasing incomes at lower levels. We need to address the damage caused by 14 years of a government moving increasingly to the right, which, although not as abrupt as Trump's "smash and grab," has quietly transferred wealth to the already affluent while squeezing the poor to levels we haven't seen for decades.

Going forward, we need to review our tax system altogether, eliminating government-created "tax escape routes." In doing so, we should ensure that if your passive income originates in the UK, you pay taxes on it in the UK, regardless of where you choose to live.

Hypocritical, a new word, accepting the status quo would that be accurate?

I'm not sure I know what you mean by this. Who or what is being hypocritical, and since when was it a new word? And who is accepting the SQ? Sorry - I'm not sleeping well, so am probably missing the obvious.

Hypocritical, a new word, accepting the status quo would that be accurate?.

The global financial system is biased in favour of those that have wealth, democratic nations have to live with that, which would probably work if economics was the only policy factor.
Very often political gain is given priority.

Doodledog

There won't be, Norah, as MMT is just a theory. It is presented as fact in the same way that a Marxist might present the exploitation of the proletariat by the bourgeouise as a fact. It is, to a believer.

This is from tax service.co.uk, showing how tax was divided up last year.

www.tax.service.gov.uk/annual-tax-summary/no-ats?taxYear=2024

We are constantly told that taxation doesn't fund spending, so what is this about? I intended to post a screenshot, as the link might not work if you are not logged in, but they still seem to be disabled.

I understand.

It seems very odd that everyone seemingly must subscribe to MMT - when not everyone does. It does seem there is no logical answer to the tax situation - agreeable to everyone.

Of course we must all pay more taxes. I’m sick of the moaners who think the NHS, Education, Police etc run on air. That potholes heal themselves and the bins empty themselves.

This is why we are in the mess we are in. Everyone needs to pay up; the wealthy too. They are often paying less pro-rata.

The Numpties that have replaced the Totally Incompetents who in turn replaced The Good Old Boys need to get to grips with reality. The majority of the public know taxes must increase - especially in view of the idiot(s) in the WH and the Mad Man in the Kremlin .

There won't be, Norah, as MMT is just a theory. It is presented as fact in the same way that a Marxist might present the exploitation of the proletariat by the bourgeouise as a fact. It is, to a believer.

This is from tax service.co.uk, showing how tax was divided up last year.

www.tax.service.gov.uk/annual-tax-summary/no-ats?taxYear=2024

We are constantly told that taxation doesn't fund spending, so what is this about? I intended to post a screenshot, as the link might not work if you are not logged in, but they still seem to be disabled.