Trump Pauses Aid To Ukraine

Grandmabatty

'The majority of Crimean Russians seem to prefer living under Russian rule. Nothing is simple or straightforward in that area.'
Nanna8 Where on earth do you get your information from? This is so obviously untrue. Crimea, as part of Ukraine, have long fought against Russian dominance.

I suspect the information comes from a source wuth a different ‘narrative’ than the majority

'The majority of Crimean Russians seem to prefer living under Russian rule. Nothing is simple or straightforward in that area.'
Nanna8 Where on earth do you get your information from? This is so obviously untrue. Crimea, as part of Ukraine, have long fought against Russian dominance.

No they don't. I don't think you understand how hard it is to live under Russian rule. You have to be happy about it or else! Living in fear is no kind of life.

The majority of Crimean Russians seem to prefer living under Russian rule. Nothing is simple or straightforward in that area.

Zelensky is a native Russian speaker born to Jewish Russian parents, he doesn't want to live in Russia. Many ethnically Russians born in Ukraine do not want to be Russian, some do but many don't.

Wyllow3

Thats not the point. The point is whether they want to live under Ukrainian or Russian governance.

It’s likely Ukraine is going to be partitioned in some way, too early to say how, Russia will be glad to have the war ended, but they also want the sanctions lifted so there is still a deal to be done to help what is left of Ukraine.

Many will object to lifting sanctions.

Thats not the point. The point is whether they want to live under Ukrainian or Russian governance.

ronib

Casdon how to explain this? Have you heard of the expression between the devil and the deep blue sea? Ukraine has much more in common with Russia than America but of course, there’s so much we won’t know about how it’s set up and run.

A significant portion of the Ukraine is actually inhabited by Russians. Not often mentioned because it doesn’t fit the narrative.

Couldn't have put it better myself. I think we should accept that we're dealing with people who cannot be trusted to stick with any agreements they make ( Trump and Putin) and focus on building strong ties with those who feel the same. Yes, we're weak ATM but if we hang around waiting on Trump's benevolence we'll just become weaker.

ronib

Casdon how to explain this? Have you heard of the expression between the devil and the deep blue sea? Ukraine has much more in common with Russia than America but of course, there’s so much we won’t know about how it’s set up and run.

But that is not, as you must know, what you said ronib, is it? It seems impossible for you to give a straight answer, so my conclusion has to be that you think it is acceptable for Russia or USA to own Ukraine, and for USA to own Canada and Greenland.

ronib

Dickens good points - I don’t know if Z is a pragmatist or has run out of options especially since Macron and Starmer are organising more physical support.

But we’re not dealing with honourable people are we? I wouldn’t assume that a signed document will be upheld once the risk has gone. And exactly what does Putin have to say about how Trump will carve up Ukraine? Does Putin now have to reach agreement with Trump and Z? What happens if the rarest rare minerals are in land which Putin wants? And since when has having American miners in Ukraine been a guarantee that Russia won’t attack? There won’t be that many numerically? Bit of muddled thinking must admit.

And since when has having American miners in Ukraine been a guarantee that Russia won’t attack?

... dunno - but Trump said it would be, though of course he didn't actually guarantee that. The 'muddled thinking' is his, not mine.

I believe his thinking is that an attack on American workers would be seen as an attack on America, and it would respond accordingly. But, would it /he (you've got me at it now - asking the 'what ifs')?

In this new strange world, this new power-axis that Trump is creating, along with others, I'm not sure what might happen, and it's hard to be detached and objective because, frankly, I think he's a self-absorbed, self-admiring, conceited, arrogant, intellectually-challenged, inarticulate, unpleasant, ruffian in a suit, who happens to have sprung from a privileged background in real-estate, who knows how to make a deal, but who has never had a moment of self-reflection, has never been humbled by anything or anyone, and who is completely reliant on the admiration of his supporters for emotional sustenance and for whom criticism is a poison that unhinges him.

... so, hmm, I cannot really talk about him dispassionately.

Am I the only one who doesn't see Zelensky's as returning "cap in hand" I think he has shown the world what sort of people he is having to deal with and has, in the main, gained sympathy and support for Ukraine, spurring Europe, Canada etc into action (hopefully). Good for him and writing a letter which ticks off the points that Trump wants him to address says more about Trump than it says about him. Will it make a difference? Hard to tell but it forces Trump to find other reasons not to support Ukraine if that is what Trump intends.

Casdon how to explain this? Have you heard of the expression between the devil and the deep blue sea? Ukraine has much more in common with Russia than America but of course, there’s so much we won’t know about how it’s set up and run.

As I expected Zelensky came back cap in hand, apologized and agreed with US, now we will see progress, it will be painful for Ukraine but a great deal better than continuing fighting.

Now of course we will see just what Russias “price for peace “ is I’m pretty sure we wont like it one bit.

ronib

So Casdon Ukraine is either under fire from Russia or an economic vassal of the USA. Not exactly a fully independent nation is it? Surely full autonomy is the best option?

Why do you keep ducking the direct question ronib? Stop answering with more questions, please, and say what you, personally, yourself, actually meant when you said it didn’t sound terrific either way?

Yes, Trump is going for a major land grab as is posted above.
NB Trump is after the Panama Canal also. He and Putin are dictators who are jointly on a mission to Divide and Conquer.

So Casdon Ukraine is either under fire from Russia or an economic vassal of the USA. Not exactly a fully independent nation is it? Surely full autonomy is the best option?

ronib

Casdon

Why ronib, what exactly to your mind is wrong with Greenland belonging to Denmark, and Ukraine and Canada remaining as sovereign countries? What isn’t terrific about that?

There’s a worry that Trump is going to go for a major land grab. Of course the ideal is for Greenland to stay with Denmark, and Ukraine and Canada to stay as sovereign states but Trump seems to be on the march. After all, he’s had a resounding success with Ukraine.

Yes, I know that. What I’m asking is why you don’t think it sounds terrific to have the status quo, as you said it didn’t sound terrific either way?

Casdon

Why ronib, what exactly to your mind is wrong with Greenland belonging to Denmark, and Ukraine and Canada remaining as sovereign countries? What isn’t terrific about that?

There’s a worry that Trump is going to go for a major land grab. Of course the ideal is for Greenland to stay with Denmark, and Ukraine and Canada to stay as sovereign states but Trump seems to be on the march. After all, he’s had a resounding success with Ukraine.

GrannyGravy13

ronib

RosieandMaw so Americans should be relieved that at last a president has looked for a cessation of hostilities and loss of life. It’s perfectly moral to ask Z to stop the slaughter and discuss a peace plan. For Starmer and Macron to pretend that Ukraine can win is grossly irresponsible and foolish. Get over it. Ukraine lost.

Zelensky to stop the slaughter ?

You are either joking or so totally ill informed about this war!

I’d go with the ill informed
It wouldn’t be the first time.
But then these opinions come down to whether you’re a wimp or warrior.

Dickens good points - I don’t know if Z is a pragmatist or has run out of options especially since Macron and Starmer are organising more physical support.

But we’re not dealing with honourable people are we? I wouldn’t assume that a signed document will be upheld once the risk has gone. And exactly what does Putin have to say about how Trump will carve up Ukraine? Does Putin now have to reach agreement with Trump and Z? What happens if the rarest rare minerals are in land which Putin wants? And since when has having American miners in Ukraine been a guarantee that Russia won’t attack? There won’t be that many numerically? Bit of muddled thinking must admit.

Trump has introduced tariffs on Canada goods in his effort to collapse the Canadian economy and make Canada the 51st State whilst easing sanctions o Russia. The Canadian Government have responded by introducing tariffs on US goods. I think we can conclude that Trump and Putin are working together now.

Why ronib, what exactly to your mind is wrong with Greenland belonging to Denmark, and Ukraine and Canada remaining as sovereign countries? What isn’t terrific about that?

Casdon ha - my friend shared this thought. But it’s possible- it’s doing the rounds…
Doesn’t sound terrific either way.

ronib

Not so busy now RosieandherMaw - so just thought what is to stop Ukraine tearing up the rare minerals treaty/contract a few years down the line ? It was signed under duress after all and that should effectively nullify it.

The rare minerals contract / treaty will be interesting. Because at the moment there's a question mark hanging over which ones they are / if indeed there are any / and whether it's possible to excavate them. Apart from Lithium. And that might be easier to get elsewhere.

Of course, such a contract could be torn up, further down the line - but for what purpose? If the Americans are in Ukraine, as Trump said "our people" would offer protection because an attack on Ukraine would in principle be an attack on the American people. So, Ukraine would have its minerals to itself (if indeed they do exist), and would have made an enemy of America and, at the same time, open itself up to further aggression from Russia. Or even America.

What would they actually gain? Who is going to ratify that it was signed under duress - and what would /could they do about it?

Aren't all peace deals signed under duress anyway - both sides having to compromise with their demands. Surely, it's never a comfortable negotiation?

In spite of what some are saying about Zelensky - I think he's a pragmatist. And he might well be exhausted by the war, as no doubt, are his people.

I take your point - but would be interested to hear why you think this might happen, and how it would develop if it did.