This statistic is verging on the unbelievable....but it is not.

Very odd.

glasshalffullagain

For Heaven's sake, why would people who are struggling want to send their children off to join the armed forces? Echoes of a bygone age I think.

😂😂😂
What a strange post
It is quite nonsensical.

For Heaven's sake, why would people who are struggling want to send their children off to join the armed forces? Echoes of a bygone age I think.

theworriedwell

Allira

M0nica

Allira I quite agree, the discipline and structure the armed services provide, has been a godsend to some youngsters, but youngsters who are willing able and capable of ltraining up to the requirements of army. Not a rag tag bunch of 18 year olds who are having career plans delayed or rounded up off the streets. They can only be a hindrance and not a help.

I agree.
I wasn't suggesting a press gang 😁 but perhaps some young people might not be aware of the opportunities for training and advancement in the Forces.

I worked in police admin back in the 80s. The force stopped recruiting cadets and replaced them with YTS youngsters. I don't know how they applied but they were generally great, they were paid a pittance, can't remember now but I think it was something like £15 a week.

I had one allocated to me, he'd do admin work 3 days a week and physical fitness and some classes the other two days. I think what made a big difference to him was the DI and DCI took an interest in him, took the mickey out of him mercilessly sometimes but encouraged him with his work, included him in CID social things. As soon as his 2 year YTS ended he joined the police. I suppose he's retired now but certainly for the first few years he was doing very well.

Over the 2 years he worked with me he changed so much, smartened up, attitude etc. We were all really proud when he got accepted into the force.

I was at a funeral and the person giving the eulogy was a former pupil at a school for 'maladjusted boys'. The funeral was of a former teacher at the school.

The man giving the eulogy ended up as an Inspector in the police force.

Allira

M0nica

Allira I quite agree, the discipline and structure the armed services provide, has been a godsend to some youngsters, but youngsters who are willing able and capable of ltraining up to the requirements of army. Not a rag tag bunch of 18 year olds who are having career plans delayed or rounded up off the streets. They can only be a hindrance and not a help.

I agree.
I wasn't suggesting a press gang 😁 but perhaps some young people might not be aware of the opportunities for training and advancement in the Forces.

I worked in police admin back in the 80s. The force stopped recruiting cadets and replaced them with YTS youngsters. I don't know how they applied but they were generally great, they were paid a pittance, can't remember now but I think it was something like £15 a week.

I had one allocated to me, he'd do admin work 3 days a week and physical fitness and some classes the other two days. I think what made a big difference to him was the DI and DCI took an interest in him, took the mickey out of him mercilessly sometimes but encouraged him with his work, included him in CID social things. As soon as his 2 year YTS ended he joined the police. I suppose he's retired now but certainly for the first few years he was doing very well.

Over the 2 years he worked with me he changed so much, smartened up, attitude etc. We were all really proud when he got accepted into the force.

M0nica

Allira I quite agree, the discipline and structure the armed services provide, has been a godsend to some youngsters, but youngsters who are willing able and capable of ltraining up to the requirements of army. Not a rag tag bunch of 18 year olds who are having career plans delayed or rounded up off the streets. They can only be a hindrance and not a help.

I agree.
I wasn't suggesting a press gang 😁 but perhaps some young people might not be aware of the opportunities for training and advancement in the Forces.

I know at least three really sick people who have been turned down for PIP they actually need it because when you are disabled pr mentally unable to hold down a full time job you need help just to pay your bills that come up due to your health. They should start with the long term unemployed first especially those that won't accept "any" work.

Fairlandia

So I see OP that your source of information is The Times, owned by billionaire Rupert Murdoch. Before repeating the old ‘victim blaming’ trope I suggest a more impartial source. This is a classic cartoon that makes the point very clearly:

uk.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrLDhYsqdpn148KchcM34lQ;_ylc=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--?ei=UTF-8&pvid=uBox.jEwLjK8yML6WqQ4bAIpODEuOQAAAAA_28oZ&gprid=&.tsrc=apple&fr=iphone&fr2=sa-gp&p=rupert+murdoch+cookie+cartoon

I’m sure that you, like everyone on here has paid their taxes all their lives, mainly in the expectation that should you become seriously ill or disabled you would be helped to some extent by the state?

I can't believe that there are posters determined to see the worst in everything - where is there talk of 'victim blaming' in my post? As to your second point, yes, I have, and yes, in that unhappy event, I would.

In fact, after reading a few of the posts on various topics over the last few days, I've come to the end of my tether. There is a small element on this once civilised and pleasant forum, which I have enjoyed for a couple of years, that seeks to tell posters what they are thinking, and accuse them of unpleasant attitudes that - certainly for me on this string - have not crossed my mind. I wanted to enjoy lively discussions and be entertained, not accused of views I do not hold. It leaves a bad taste. Happy now?

Allira I quite agree, the discipline and structure the armed services provide, has been a godsend to some youngsters, but youngsters who are willing able and capable of ltraining up to the requirements of army. Not a rag tag bunch of 18 year olds who are having career plans delayed or rounded up off the streets. They can only be a hindrance and not a help.

These families are the ones that every middle class professional in social care could tell you about

Perhaps " these families" would benefit from interventions other than middle class professionals. People from within communities, sensible,respected people with lived experience.

Are you suggesting they just carry on as they are, producing more feckless generations?

Are you suggesting some sort of Class Police or eugenics perhaps?

Bring back National Service. yeah, that'll work.

Cossy

What is actually needed, and pdq, is some way of breaking the cycle of generational benefits claimants. Sadly there are too many.

Even when I worked in DWP, leaving in 2022, I came across some third generation claimants, soon third will become fourth.

I’m not sure what the answer is, longer work coach appts to really dig into backgrounds would help, maybe those youngsters still living at home should have their benefits stopped completely after three months if they refuse work or training?

Something really needs to be done to build aspiration early on in schools and show children in Secondary Education it’s possible to break the cycle.

Job Centres used to work really closely in schools with 5th years to go into assemblies to talk about choices, I did a good few myself, as well as running sessions for 6th formers on CVs, job applications, job choices. No doubt these were cut!

Yes, those services were cut, as were the face-to-face meetings with pupils at risk of leaving school without any plans.

Cossy

What is actually needed, and pdq, is some way of breaking the cycle of generational benefits claimants. Sadly there are too many.

Even when I worked in DWP, leaving in 2022, I came across some third generation claimants, soon third will become fourth.

I’m not sure what the answer is, longer work coach appts to really dig into backgrounds would help, maybe those youngsters still living at home should have their benefits stopped completely after three months if they refuse work or training?

Something really needs to be done to build aspiration early on in schools and show children in Secondary Education it’s possible to break the cycle.

Job Centres used to work really closely in schools with 5th years to go into assemblies to talk about choices, I did a good few myself, as well as running sessions for 6th formers on CVs, job applications, job choices. No doubt these were cut!

Perhaps a form of Youth Training, an improvement on the old YTS scheme might be an idea to get young people used to the idea of working, learning and having a routine.

M0nica

MARPG You clearly have a very low opinion of our armed services if you think they are a suitable organisation to find low level activities to occupy 18-20 year olds for a couple of years, many of whom would prefer to be in training or at university taking practical steps towards gaining useful careers.

The armed services are not an employment service for the untrained and often unmotivated. The days of cannon fodder in boots has long gone. Nowadays our soldiers at every level are highly technically trained, able to use all that modern technology thta has come into play over the last 50 years.

You might as well say that some should go into our hospitals as nurss. 50 -60 years ago, nursing was mainly about caring for people, nowadays nurses are highly sklled, able to use the wide range of equipment and monitor it. I would not have wanted a school leaver to have been monitoring DH in a semi-comotose state in hospital for many weeks - and I would not want to see an untrained 18 year old trying to fire a drone or trying to negotiate with Afghan villagers, or their equivalent. The effects could, quite literally start another war.

Well said, M0nica

Although I would add that, for those who might have lacked structure in their lives, for those who choose to join the Forces and benefit from the training given, it does give a good foundation for whatever they choose to do in the future.

What is actually needed, and pdq, is some way of breaking the cycle of generational benefits claimants. Sadly there are too many.

Even when I worked in DWP, leaving in 2022, I came across some third generation claimants, soon third will become fourth.

I’m not sure what the answer is, longer work coach appts to really dig into backgrounds would help, maybe those youngsters still living at home should have their benefits stopped completely after three months if they refuse work or training?

Something really needs to be done to build aspiration early on in schools and show children in Secondary Education it’s possible to break the cycle.

Job Centres used to work really closely in schools with 5th years to go into assemblies to talk about choices, I did a good few myself, as well as running sessions for 6th formers on CVs, job applications, job choices. No doubt these were cut!

JaneJudge

Families who have no routine or structure, ever. They don’t have to get up and work and imo leads to be being dysfunctional long term.

I have an adult child with a severe disability who needs to rely on benefits fwiw. They still strive on routine

I’m no hypocrite

Well said, JaneJudge

You know of what you speak.

National Service needn't be military though. There are many things that people could do in lieu of paying tax into the economy, and there is an argument for that being a requirement for everyone benefiting from living in a country that provides so many things to all citizens. Obviously there should be exemptions for those incapable of doing it, or who have already worked for X years - I am not suggesting that retirees should be conscripted after years of work .

The problem, however, is that it is difficult to think of many jobs that could be done under a scheme like that which are not already being done by people currently being paid, and 'conscription' would undercut their wages, and increase unemployment, which would defeat the object. It would also be open to exploitation by the sort of employers whose profits are already subsidised from the public purse in the form of top-ups to underpaid staff. If they could get a free workforce they would almost certainly do so.

Somehow there has to be a measurable incentive to being in work, and it's very difficult to achieve that without simultaneously being punitive to those on benefits. Free entry to venues, (or reduced prices) for the unwaged is a slap in the face to people working for minimum wage, but at the same time, gratuitously cutting that sort of thing seems cruel.

I'm not sure of the detail, but the idea of a time-limited unemployment benefit based on contributions seems like a good idea at first glance. If people can't claim before having paid in for a certain length of time (and the devil is in that sort of detail) they will have had to have experience of work before getting the payment, which may solve some of the problems with employability. Also, a time-limited benefit might galvanise people to find another job before it runs out. On the other hand, what are people who have never worked supposed to live on if they are denied assistance? The 'insurance' payment would have to be a extra, which might not save money, but seems like a good idea, as it would differentiate between long-term claimants and those who have temporarily fallen on hard times. Or is that going down the 'deserving and undeserving' route? I don't know.

It's not as simple as cutting benefits, or of 'workers versus scroungers', and I wish media coverage at least tried to address that.

M0nica

MARPG You clearly have a very low opinion of our armed services if you think they are a suitable organisation to find low level activities to occupy 18-20 year olds for a couple of years, many of whom would prefer to be in training or at university taking practical steps towards gaining useful careers.

The armed services are not an employment service for the untrained and often unmotivated. The days of cannon fodder in boots has long gone. Nowadays our soldiers at every level are highly technically trained, able to use all that modern technology thta has come into play over the last 50 years.

You might as well say that some should go into our hospitals as nurss. 50 -60 years ago, nursing was mainly about caring for people, nowadays nurses are highly sklled, able to use the wide range of equipment and monitor it. I would not have wanted a school leaver to have been monitoring DH in a semi-comotose state in hospital for many weeks - and I would not want to see an untrained 18 year old trying to fire a drone or trying to negotiate with Afghan villagers, or their equivalent. The effects could, quite literally start another war.

Very well said!

MARPG You clearly have a very low opinion of our armed services if you think they are a suitable organisation to find low level activities to occupy 18-20 year olds for a couple of years, many of whom would prefer to be in training or at university taking practical steps towards gaining useful careers.

The armed services are not an employment service for the untrained and often unmotivated. The days of cannon fodder in boots has long gone. Nowadays our soldiers at every level are highly technically trained, able to use all that modern technology thta has come into play over the last 50 years.

You might as well say that some should go into our hospitals as nurss. 50 -60 years ago, nursing was mainly about caring for people, nowadays nurses are highly sklled, able to use the wide range of equipment and monitor it. I would not have wanted a school leaver to have been monitoring DH in a semi-comotose state in hospital for many weeks - and I would not want to see an untrained 18 year old trying to fire a drone or trying to negotiate with Afghan villagers, or their equivalent. The effects could, quite literally start another war.

So I see OP that your source of information is The Times, owned by billionaire Rupert Murdoch. Before repeating the old ‘victim blaming’ trope I suggest a more impartial source. This is a classic cartoon that makes the point very clearly:

uk.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrLDhYsqdpn148KchcM34lQ;_ylc=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--?ei=UTF-8&pvid=uBox.jEwLjK8yML6WqQ4bAIpODEuOQAAAAA_28oZ&gprid=&.tsrc=apple&fr=iphone&fr2=sa-gp&p=rupert+murdoch+cookie+cartoon

I’m sure that you, like everyone on here has paid their taxes all their lives, mainly in the expectation that should you become seriously ill or disabled you would be helped to some extent by the state?

Cossy

Barleyfields

It’s not just a matter of ‘encouraging’ people into work, how many employers would be willing to take a chance on someone who has been out of work for a very long time especially given Labour’s intention to make it more difficult to dismiss a new employee who isn’t up to the job? Given the choice between two candidates, one of whom had an unbroken record of work and the other had been living on benefits for a long time, who would you choose?

You are right and the longer said person is unemployed the worse and harder it will get.

Job centres can set up “work trials” employer just pays expenses and prospective employee continues to receive benefits, employer can monitor timekeeping, attitude and aptitude. Work trials normally last 1-2 weeks, but can be extended.

That sounds like a good system Cossy. I hope it survives and can be extended. The planned changes to employees’ rights could seriously affect employers’ willingness to give people a chance.

glasshalffullagain

I feel uneasy with " these families". Its a bit like " refugees". I agree there can be generations of people who fall off the radar, have all sorts of issues, and have low expectations.

But if you want to look for scroungers and idleness, look further up the food chain.

Growing up I knew a family of 12 children, their father was a layabout and never held a job down. He was very selfish and the kids got nothing, none of them did well at school. Ten of them have done well, all working or worked and now retired, some with their own businesses. They all got a trade, some in the forces. Two had severe MH problems which in no small part was down to the way their father treated them, he wasn't kind to any of them, didn't provide well for any of them but these two were a target.

From what I know the GC are all working, home owning tax payers.

I just wanted to point out that children from "these families" can do well, some can't as the cards are stacked against them from day one. I think your unease is entirely justified.

Although I support the idea of helping those who can work to find employment I am a bit puzzled about how this can be easily accomplished since employers now have more National Insurance costs. Balancing the two factors might be tricky.

MARPG

I Wonder what would happen if Britain bought back NATIONAL SERVICE - Would it halves immigration ?

??? I very much doubt it.

We’d still have the ridiculous situation of the length of processing the asylum seekers claims.

I know some people think that bringing back national service would be a panacea but frankly I cannot think of anything worse for our Armed Services to suddenly receive an influx of sulky, lazy people, whatever their nationality, who don’t want to be part of our Armed Services.

We need willing, hard working people who want to join up.

Barleyfields

It’s not just a matter of ‘encouraging’ people into work, how many employers would be willing to take a chance on someone who has been out of work for a very long time especially given Labour’s intention to make it more difficult to dismiss a new employee who isn’t up to the job? Given the choice between two candidates, one of whom had an unbroken record of work and the other had been living on benefits for a long time, who would you choose?

You are right and the longer said person is unemployed the worse and harder it will get.

Job centres can set up “work trials” employer just pays expenses and prospective employee continues to receive benefits, employer can monitor timekeeping, attitude and aptitude. Work trials normally last 1-2 weeks, but can be extended.

I Wonder what would happen if Britain bought back NATIONAL SERVICE - Would it halves immigration ?