Strewth- a totally different point of view

Allira

Interesting, Norah.

What did Monroe consider to be the Western Hemisphere?
I thought it included most of the British Isles, part of France, Spain, Portugal, also part of Africa?
Anything west of Greenwich.

I'm not a historian. I've not read Monroe's tactual houghts. Seems as if POTUS does speak fondly of the 1800s in America.

Very interesting stuff, Norah. It does feel as if Trump is heading backwards clinging to what is basically no longer possible in this very global world. -like it or not thats what we've got.

Trump has warned against Canada joining with Europe and others. That isn't in his best interests.
There are talks with India that has had a 46% tariff imposed by Trump.
The UK may be interested in trade with them as it would be cheaper for India than paying Trump's tariffs.

Interesting, Norah.

What did Monroe consider to be the Western Hemisphere?
I thought it included most of the British Isles, part of France, Spain, Portugal, also part of Africa?
Anything west of Greenwich.

Allira

foxie48

I think there's a danger that if Trump carries on down this path, globalisation will continue but with the US being peripheral to it. I don't think it's possible to return to a world that precludes it. Every great nation has been built on trade and trade prospers when it brings benefits to all parties. The Marshall Plan was designed by the US to bring Europe back to economic vitality, it also provided customers for a greatly expanded US economy. A win/win situation which helped to turn the US into the biggest economy in the world.

We've traded for millennia. Hence the names of some of our routes, our geographical phenomena. The Silk Road, the Spice Route etc, Trade Winds which were the winds taking goods to and from the Americas.

Trump seems to want to head towards isolationism.

Trump seems to want to head towards isolationism.

Indeed.

ASPI 21 January 2025

"Trump subscribes to a brand of isolationism that has waxed and waned throughout US history, but has its roots in the Monroe Doctrine. In 1823, America’s fifth president, James Monroe, declared that the United States would not intervene in the affairs of European countries (or their colonies and dependencies), and warned those countries not to interfere in the western hemisphere, such as through colonisation. Any breach of this line by a European power would be viewed as a hostile act against the US.

Trump confirmed his adherence to the Monroe Doctrine in a 2018 speech at the United Nations. This position is undoubtedly linked to the US-China competition: Trump wants to deter the US’s global rival from interfering in the US’s near-abroad."

Not too sure what Trump’s motivation is but decreasing the financial clout of China must be on his list?

foxie48

I think there's a danger that if Trump carries on down this path, globalisation will continue but with the US being peripheral to it. I don't think it's possible to return to a world that precludes it. Every great nation has been built on trade and trade prospers when it brings benefits to all parties. The Marshall Plan was designed by the US to bring Europe back to economic vitality, it also provided customers for a greatly expanded US economy. A win/win situation which helped to turn the US into the biggest economy in the world.

We've traded for millennia. Hence the names of some of our routes, our geographical phenomena. The Silk Road, the Spice Route etc, Trade Winds which were the winds taking goods to and from the Americas.

Trump seems to want to head towards isolationism.

I think there's a danger that if Trump carries on down this path, globalisation will continue but with the US being peripheral to it. I don't think it's possible to return to a world that precludes it. Every great nation has been built on trade and trade prospers when it brings benefits to all parties. The Marshall Plan was designed by the US to bring Europe back to economic vitality, it also provided customers for a greatly expanded US economy. A win/win situation which helped to turn the US into the biggest economy in the world.

It very much remains to be seen whether Trump’s strategy will work at all ronib.

Not so sure that attacking globalisation and returning to national identity and individual countries is an easy task. The language which Trump uses is not sophisticated but he is attempting a reset of world trade and attempting to subvert China’s trading stronghold. Ultimately I don’t know where this leads the Uk but we are not Trump’s problem. How else would Trump accomplish this resetting of trade?

The appeal of MAGA and Reform type parties is in simple answers to complex problems.

Exactly Iam - well said.

Thanks nana8

Thanks imaround for your analysis of where the parties are in the USA. If Reform had infiltrated the Conservatives rather than stand as a party, we could have our own MAGA moment. Reform split the Conservative vote in my area and many others. We now have a good Labour MP but Reform is very active with stands setting up in our village centres.

The appeal of MAGA and Reform type parties is in simple answers to complex problems. Starmer’s inability to play that game is a positive imo but isn’t making him popular with Reform voters

Hope you are feeling a bit better today Iam64 It’s a volatile world we live in just now.

Iam64

He’s called all kind of things Galaxy and it’s good to know we agree on some of the actions he’s taken. I continue to feel we have a thoughtful determined person as PM in these tough times

Me too. I think we are seeing the strengths atm, no hasty rush to action or statements. Wise to consult the business community. They must have been talking endlessly about it behind closed doors tho. There is a separate thread now about allies and a very necessary move.

Allira

escaped that reminded me of a post-referendum party we went to. 🙂

I have seen comments from several posters that FriedGreenTomatoes2 is always polite despite having differing views from the majority on here and I will agree with that, even though I may disagree with her too.

I agree. FGT2 is always polite and kind.

I disagree with some of her political posts, but I disagree with many things.

Oh well.

Casdon

Norah

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Markets bounce up and down all the time. Huge losses at the moment but it won’t last. It never does.

Of course it won't last, the Dow was only down 372 today.

Up down, profit taking. It'll go back up, always does.

As of the last market close, the S&P was down 16.1%, the Dow was down 13.0% and the Nasdaq was down 21.1% in Trump's second term.

True, over 6 months of ups and downs. Year on? Dow down less than 1000 points.

It's volatile. Always has been, I trade shares, some wins some losses.

That is 100% what is happening IMO Casdon.

fancythat

^ but Trump needs to move quickly to avoid the ducks being rearranged to avoid his tariffs, he can’t remain at odds with the rest of the world and expect to get his own way.

^

What do you mean by this?

I mean if other countries set up alternative trading blocs to avoid paying the tariffs, which could be done, then the tariffs won’t achieve the desired effect because other countries will stop or drastically reduce trading with the USA and trade more with each other.

Wyllow3

But he's just continuing to pile on the uncertainty and pressure.

That is what I think he is doing, and deliberately.

But he's just continuing to pile on the uncertainty and pressure.

Fingers crossed that happens, is it likely to be soon do you think?

^ but Trump needs to move quickly to avoid the ducks being rearranged to avoid his tariffs, he can’t remain at odds with the rest of the world and expect to get his own way.

^

What do you mean by this?

7 Republicans in Congress have joined the Democrats on a bill that, if passes, will.m severly limit Trumps ability to use tariffs.

I read there is talk between Senate and House to get more House members on board, because ot has to pass there too.

Unfortunately, it has to land on Trumps desk and he will veto it. Then they will have to have a 2/3 vote.

That is where things will get tricky.

I don’t think we’ve ever seen anything like this before imaround, so I’ve been checking the markets. Of course at some point this artificially created position will change again, but Trump needs to move quickly to avoid the ducks being rearranged to avoid his tariffs, he can’t remain at odds with the rest of the world and expect to get his own way.

Thank you Casdon. It is frustrating when people minimize what is actually happening.

Yes market fluctuate. This crash, though, was deliberately caused and the person who caused it plans on it continuing for a long time.

We are looking at, at best, a 2008 level recession. If he continues, we could hit Depression era losses.

And the entire thing is avoidable and reversible.