Globalisation - The implications for ordinary working people

‘Compliant is just complaint with the letters reversed

I think David49 we will have to agree to differ.

Of course you have autonomy in your personal interaction but the best way to promotion for most is to apply the existing system well, when you get to executive level you then have a chance to make changes.

I’ve always been self employed, technical college taught me how to manage a business, Farming, Building, Restaurant, Commercial property, all on borrowed money. Just the Building and Commercial tenants now they are really good to deal with.
I play by the rules, get on with all my neighbours, avoid the crooks and local politics

I do not know what you did for a living David, but it sounds really unusual to be so robotic.

Most of us work within a framework of rules, but that doesn't stop us also having personal autonomy. A teacher has to teach a fixed syllabus, but some do it well and some badly because of the way they teach, how they work with children and how they behave.

Exactly the same applies to those in the NHS, law, accounting where there is a clear framework, but how you do the work and what you bring to it is up to you.

Having had several very bruising encounters with the NHS over the last year or so. I have seen things that worked well and others were a disaster. the difference wasn't the rules, it was the individuals applying them. Those in blinkers 'just following the rules' and others doing exactly the same thing but seeing links, and referring people to other departments, or other services or taking time to explain something.

All I know is that in all the jobs I had from start to finish I always had a level of autonomy. Even when I was a waitress, I could be a friendly helpful waitress, or a grumpy one.

We are robots in our working lives we only tolerate it because we are paid to. The Chinese comparison is very apt if you fit in with the system live can be good, if you challenge it will be hard.

If you’re a boss you do listen to feedback and try to incorporate changes, what you don’t want is continual dissent that it can be done better.
If you work for the NHS, Teaching or Local Government there are strict regulations how you work, you either comply or leave - most stay because it pays the rent. Coming back to education the sooner all children learn to comply with system the better.

Reading David's post about rule following and changes coming from the top reminded me of the series "Troubleshooters" with Sir John Harvey Jones. When he went to a business in trouble he always spent time talking to people on the shop floor first rather than the managers because he thought they would be able to identify what was wrong with the business they worked in. Generally, they had a much clearer view than the managers who had made the "rules" and "decisions" that they were expected to follow. It's a huge mistake to imagine that people lower in the hierachy have nothing to offer apart from being compliant rule followers.

David49

M0nica

I am not sure whether I was brought up to be compliant or not. I do know that I certainly never was. I always asked questions and queried things. But that is nothing to do with how you work.

A job is contract between worker and employer. So you follow the conditions of your contract, but a good worker does not obey blindly. They should have the guts to query and possibly refuse if asked to so something dangerous or illegal and often checking and querying is part of the work your do.

One manager I reported to told me, with approval, that our IT department saw me as being 'difficult'. He said that meant that I was quite clear about my department's IT needs and I was not going to be fobbed off with an IT system that did not do what it we wanted it to do. I absolutely wasn't compliant.

Ever job has a working system, that system has evolved often over many years to ensure safety, reduce fraud and improve efficiency.

There are always shortcuts that might make the job easier, at risk to the other factors. In a large company or government department those changes come from the top, not from some operator in the local office.

If you are a Teacher, Solicitor, or Accountant you are a slave to the system, there is no point questioning it, you have to be compliant. It is really helpful if children learn at an early age that fitting in with the system is much easier than rebeling against it

My goodness! So let's all become robots! I can't believe I've just read that. I'm just grateful I went to a school (a girls' school) where I was encouraged to question the status quo. Otherwise, I might have been very proficient at needlework and baking but little else.

Children need to learn how to follow rules and how to effectively challenge stupid rules.

David in every system there is a point in challenging it if necessary, it is the way you do this that matters. Were it not for people challenging rigid rules we would still be in the dark ages.

Even sentencing guidelines, for example, that must be followed, are at the same time as they are being applied rigourously and carefully, also being challenged, leading to change.

As the serenity prayer says: Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.

It is always surprising how many of the things people say can never be changed are actually susceptible to change if you go about it in the right way.

You say^ It is really helpful if children learn at an early age that fitting in with the system is much easier than rebeling against it^ That sentence made my blood run cold. It is the basis on which China wields control over its population and every other dictator the world has known.

Children should be taught to question and challenge in a constructive way.

M0nica

I am not sure whether I was brought up to be compliant or not. I do know that I certainly never was. I always asked questions and queried things. But that is nothing to do with how you work.

A job is contract between worker and employer. So you follow the conditions of your contract, but a good worker does not obey blindly. They should have the guts to query and possibly refuse if asked to so something dangerous or illegal and often checking and querying is part of the work your do.

One manager I reported to told me, with approval, that our IT department saw me as being 'difficult'. He said that meant that I was quite clear about my department's IT needs and I was not going to be fobbed off with an IT system that did not do what it we wanted it to do. I absolutely wasn't compliant.

Ever job has a working system, that system has evolved often over many years to ensure safety, reduce fraud and improve efficiency.

There are always shortcuts that might make the job easier, at risk to the other factors. In a large company or government department those changes come from the top, not from some operator in the local office.

If you are a Teacher, Solicitor, or Accountant you are a slave to the system, there is no point questioning it, you have to be compliant. It is really helpful if children learn at an early age that fitting in with the system is much easier than rebeling against it

Why should Putin blow up his own pipeline? He's only got to shut it off. Someone else did the blowing up. America?

M0nica

growstuff Your family are exceptional.

I do not respond to ignorant personal comments.

No MOnica they're not exceptional. They are "ordinary working people", like most people in the country.

Excellent appraisal.

growstuff People don't have to move outside their own environment if there are local opportunities. My own extended family comes from the North East (Teesside). Many of them are graduates who have chosen to stay in the region. They were all state-school educated, went to university and then returned home. Housing is cheap, so they live in houses which seem like mansions to those of us living in more expensive areas. They have a great quality of life.

I agree, my family have a great quality of life in a low cost area.

I am not sure whether I was brought up to be compliant or not. I do know that I certainly never was. I always asked questions and queried things. But that is nothing to do with how you work.

A job is contract between worker and employer. So you follow the conditions of your contract, but a good worker does not obey blindly. They should have the guts to query and possibly refuse if asked to so something dangerous or illegal and often checking and querying is part of the work your do.

One manager I reported to told me, with approval, that our IT department saw me as being 'difficult'. He said that meant that I was quite clear about my department's IT needs and I was not going to be fobbed off with an IT system that did not do what it we wanted it to do. I absolutely wasn't compliant.

I was definitely brought up to be compliant, in those days it was very painful if you got caught disobeying rules. The same rules and standards are relevant today but nobody upholds them. Blame parents, blame society, certainly bad behavior and violence in schools is widespread, social media makes it worse.

When you begin work you have to accept instructions and do the job whatever it is, that’s going to apply to most workers throughout their working life, there is a system and it has to be followed. Only those at the head of an organization, wether self employed or CEO have the choice of changing the system

growstuff Your family are exceptional.

I do not respond to ignorant personal comments.

I live in the North East, and work in a city with high level of deprivation, none of the middle class teachers, lawyers, etc etc live in the deprived areas, they move out as soon as possible, they work in those areas but don't live in them.

MOnica My family members live within metres of the areas they were brought up in. Crucially, they went to the same schools (normal state schools) as their parents. Education (and doing well at school) has been the key, alongside being involved with their communities. I'm not going to give any more details because I respect their right to privacy. You really don't seem to have much actual experience of living in deprived communities. You comment as an outsider.

The point is that opportunities need to be available - and that won't happen if the solution is to provide low-skilled, low paid jobs.

Maybe we should look to China and see how how young people/school pupils are treated! They are brought up to be compliant.

David49

foxie48

Of course schools teach discipline and also encourage self discipline. Schools rely on pupils knowing what is expected of them and most pupils follow those rules. Contrary to what people might think the vast majority of schools are well organised and rules based, pupils are expected to work in groups and on their own both in and out of the school environment and most do. As always it is the exceptions that always seem to prove the rule!
Financial competence is taught through the curriculum from year 4 and is part of the citizenship element of the national curriculum.
You may have been particularly unlucky with the young men that you've come into contact with because I don't think they are representative of most young men. It is true they often mature more slowly than young women but describing them as you have done seems to be a rather prejudiced and harsh view that is not reflective of many of the young men that I have met over the years. I have five grandsons and none would fit your description.

What you say just isn’t true because there wouldnt be a problem with youth unemployment, if school leavers were prepared for the adult world.

I also have grandsons 4 of them, on the occasions I worked alongside them it was a challenge the first year, a ordinary boss or co worker would not have tolerated it for long. They all grew up of course, at 20 they were just normal pleasant lads.
It’s that lack of maturity at school leaving age thats the problem most of my/our age group wants straight to work at 15 or 16 that was what we were schooled for

Maybe their parents had something to do with their lack of maturity.

What exactly do you think schools should be teaching young people to prepare them for the adult world (whatever that is)?

foxie48

Of course schools teach discipline and also encourage self discipline. Schools rely on pupils knowing what is expected of them and most pupils follow those rules. Contrary to what people might think the vast majority of schools are well organised and rules based, pupils are expected to work in groups and on their own both in and out of the school environment and most do. As always it is the exceptions that always seem to prove the rule!
Financial competence is taught through the curriculum from year 4 and is part of the citizenship element of the national curriculum.
You may have been particularly unlucky with the young men that you've come into contact with because I don't think they are representative of most young men. It is true they often mature more slowly than young women but describing them as you have done seems to be a rather prejudiced and harsh view that is not reflective of many of the young men that I have met over the years. I have five grandsons and none would fit your description.

What you say just isn’t true because there wouldnt be a problem with youth unemployment, if school leavers were prepared for the adult world.

I also have grandsons 4 of them, on the occasions I worked alongside them it was a challenge the first year, a ordinary boss or co worker would not have tolerated it for long. They all grew up of course, at 20 they were just normal pleasant lads.
It’s that lack of maturity at school leaving age thats the problem most of my/our age group wants straight to work at 15 or 16 that was what we were schooled for

Of course schools teach discipline and also encourage self discipline. Schools rely on pupils knowing what is expected of them and most pupils follow those rules. Contrary to what people might think the vast majority of schools are well organised and rules based, pupils are expected to work in groups and on their own both in and out of the school environment and most do. As always it is the exceptions that always seem to prove the rule!
Financial competence is taught through the curriculum from year 4 and is part of the citizenship element of the national curriculum.
You may have been particularly unlucky with the young men that you've come into contact with because I don't think they are representative of most young men. It is true they often mature more slowly than young women but describing them as you have done seems to be a rather prejudiced and harsh view that is not reflective of many of the young men that I have met over the years. I have five grandsons and none would fit your description.

They can begin with discipline, especially self discipline, schools give them new experiences day by day, work is not like that you follow instructions then repeat the task day by day, only as you gain more experience and qualification do you move on to other tasks.

They can teach the basics of personal finance, how to interact with the adults they are going to be working alongside. I always found girls were much better than boys, they just couldn’t put their phones away and forget their mates when they were working.

My criticism is aimed mainly at boys they just don’t take life and work seriously, the concept having to work for the wages they get is foreign - many just sponge off their parents for pocket money

People don't have to move outside their own environment if there are local opportunities. My own extended family comes from the North East (Teesside). Many of them are graduates who have chosen to stay in the region. They were all state-school educated, went to university and then returned home. Housing is cheap, so they live in houses which seem like mansions to those of us living in more expensive areas. They have a great quality of life. People with no skills get "dumped" in deprived areas because housing is cheap, but don't forget that even deprived areas need people with professional skills (lawyers, teachers, accountants, medics, etc etc). Offering only unskilled jobs in factories just reinforces the split.

growstuff. Do the successful members of your family live in the same neighbourhoods they lived in when they were children? or do they live in the same town, but in different areas. I suspect the latter because you comment on the quality of their houses, moving areas means being in the catchment areas of different schools, of being in schools, of being at school with other children from similar aspirational families.

You do not need to move far within a town to go from deprived to aspirational area. The same with professional people who work in deprived areas. Professional people may work in deprived areas, but they travel home to leafy more prosperous suburbs after work.

When deprved areas lose those within the group who have tha capapcity to move on to higher education etc, it deprives the remaining community of their brightest people who are most likely to provide such a community with advocates and encourage others.

We seem to have got rid of a class system that kept people within the class they were born to but meant that all these classes included both the less able and the brightest and best for a meritocracy where the cleverest and most enterprising get ahead and win all the prizes and those less able to make their way in the world are stuck.

I am not sure which is worst.