Green tomato chutney is a thing - fried I'm not sure about - but is it green potatoes that you're thinking of Furret?
Word pairs. New game 9th November
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Trump versus Harvard - and freedom to learn
(99 Posts)Forgive the long start, but it does outline the struggle against a state controlling education and learning
On one side is Harvard, the nation’s oldest and wealthiest university, with a brand so powerful that its name is synonymous with prestige.
On the other side is the Trump administration, determined to go further than any other White House to reshape American higher education.
Both sides are digging in for a clash that could test the limits of the government’s power and the independence that has made U.S. universities a destination for scholars around the world.
On Monday, Harvard became the first university to openly defy the Trump administration as it demands sweeping changes to limit activism on campus. The university frames the government’s demands as a threat not only to the Ivy League school but to the autonomy that the Supreme Court has long granted American universities.
The federal government says it’s freezing more than $2.2 billion in grants and $60 million in contracts to Harvard (and other universities including other elite ones, but most have caved in - until now.
Already, Harvard’s refusal appears to be emboldening other institutions.
After initially agreeing to several demands from the Trump administration, Columbia University’s acting president took a more defiant tone in a campus message Monday, saying some of the demands “are not subject to negotiation.”
Harvards refusal has now been met with further Trump action
Trump threatened Tuesday to escalate the dispute, suggesting on social media that Harvard should lose its tax-exempt status “if it keeps pushing political, ideological, and terrorist inspired/supporting ‘Sickness’
Sickness?
Thesis their attitude to education from schools to universities, to education in the military, and libraries so far in institutes like the Naval Institute - how long before all libraries.
Burning books next?
Back to Harvard:
“The impasse raises questions about how far the administration is willing to go. However it plays out, a legal battle is likely. A faculty group has already brought a court challenge against the demands, and many in academia expect Harvard to bring its own lawsuit.
In its refusal letter, Harvard said the government’s demands violate the school’s First Amendment rights and other civil rights laws.”
More in the article, ie what is supposed to be “sickness”
But this little quote “took the biscuit” in a way for me.
Obviously some republicans at Harvard are in a complex situation, but
A statement from Harvard’s Republican Club implored the university to reach a resolution with the government and “return to the American principles that formed the great men of this nation
Great men of the nation? Are we in the 1950's?
Women were visited by the police in their homes for gender critical speech. The latest one was a lesbian who the police subsequently apologised to. Would have possibly been a good idea for the progressives to stand up for women and the free speech lobby. It seems the feminists are quite skilled at winning legal battles, we might have been useful in the fight against the right.
As far as I am aware it has never been illegal or hate speech to misgender someone. I agree that people have taken their own position, wrongly IMO but it's never been illegal hence the need for clarification.
I thought green tomatoes were toxic?
And my last post on this. Sure the racist cultural Marxists at Harvard can teach whatever drivel they want - they just can’t do it with public money. Go Trump!
I saw too that there were videos since last year of mobs of Harvard students chasing one Israeli business student off the Harvard Yard, with mob leaders clearly identified, and the university still hasn't taken any action at all. Not nice.
At all.
Some sweeping intellectual statements about Harvard’s freedoms of speech. Hmm? The point isn't freedom of speech it is the right to attend your lectures and use your university facilities without out fear and abuse because of one's religion. If the university says it's Jewish students must take their degrees by distance learning because it isn't safe for them and the presence of Jewish students is disruptive then it isn't freedom of speech it is illegal antisemitism and the perpetrators should be expelled but they are not instead they are protected by the faculty. Therefore the university should be shut down for breaking the law. Well done Trump (again).
Calling a transwoman a man was hate speech five minutes ago foxie. The only reason you were able to listen to that discussion is because brave women lost jobs, were visited by the police, and threatened with physical violence for that 'hate speech.
Battles around what can be taught and what has been censored have been alive and active for centuries in the US.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_school_curricula_in_the_United_States
Its the scale of it coming from the very top that's different now, and attacking freedom of learning and research at the very highest levels.
There have been examples of censorship at both ends of the political spectrum, some in the middle too but no one gains from adding more to the mix. I listened to an excellent podcast this morning from the Times about the recent Supreme court ruling with regard to the legal definition of a "woman". I learned more in a half hour of listening than I could have done by a lifetime of living somewhere that silences different opinions.
There's a huge difference between expressing a different view and using hate speech unfortunately Trump does not understand the difference and is trying to suppress the former and is guilty of expressing the latter which is not what anyone would want in the POTUS.
I hope more institutions follow Harvard's example and are brave enough to challenge Trump. America has rapidly become a country where people are frightened to speak their mind for fear of retribution, no wonder the number of tourists have dropped dramatically, it's no longer a country where people feel safe from the government. Who could have imagined this situation 10 years ago?
Well finishing a post would help with clarity
.
I don't know how to be clearer the left or the progressives have been dreadful on freedom of speech. Their failure has been clear for everyone to see. I think Trump is a petulant child bit he didn't start the censorship.
Chocolatelovinggran I don't want Harvard, Princeton, Brown, Cornell etc to go.
I'm relieved they are standing together on this issue.
I posted info on just this, earlier.
Britain.
I don't know how to be clearer I won't h
Whitewavemark2
Who is “we” and “you”?
You need to make yourself clearer.
Thank you!
Yes.
You aren't very clear and those of us who have been involved in university education in the UK are well aware of the debates.
Where are you living Galaxy?
Galaxy
And who gets to decide those limitations Whitewave. Perhaps Trump is deciding what the limitations are now. It's not fun is it?
The 1st Amendment gets to decide. It was literally written to stop the government from doing this very thing. It is censorship by an authoritarian government.
Norah
www.nytimes.com/2025/04/18/us/politics/trump-irs.html
Apparently he is attempting meddling in their taxing system.
Its behind a paywall, but this covers the same ground
thehill.com/homenews/administration/5254660-trump-floats-wider-irs-tax-exemption-crackdown/
OK so Harvard can go apparently- is everyone on here comfortable with Princeton, Brown, Cornell and many other fairly prestigious universities going, too, unless they accept the scarcely literate or numerate Mr Trump's rulings on what they teach?
( Mr Trump of
" Congo- I don't know what that is.. "
" 46% - that's over half"
Et Al)
Already, some universities have caved in to the man who appointed a Secretary of State for Education who did not know the difference between AI aka Artificial Intelligence and A1, aka as a barbecue sauce.
I lack enthusiasm for such people setting the curriculum for a nursery school, never mind an institution of Higher Education.
My interest in Harvard is that its taking a stand against Trump.
As I said above "But what we are facing is a "deplatforming" attack on anyone and everyone who disagrees with Trumps ideologies, policies, and the way he is disassembling a once rightly proud democracy".
By all means take Harvard or any other institution to task on an individual issue, certainly on matters such as allegations of anti semitism and other hate crimes,
but a government in a democracy cannot and should not attempt to take control of whole departments, curricula, appointments, and research with its partiuclar ideologies. Its across the board on educational institutions (with a lot of State differences), books banned, areas of teaching forbidden.
www.nytimes.com/2025/04/18/us/politics/trump-irs.html
Apparently he is attempting meddling in their taxing system.
It's not a case of disagreeing Wyllow. I don't want to fight on their side. Under any circumstances.
It's not really missing the point, that episode at Harvard was a good example of why Trump won.
Caleo
True news story shows America still lives good despite Trump:
www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ice-tries-detain-man-tennessee-home-neighbors-form-human-chain-n1032791?fbclid=IwY2xjawJvGVdleHRu
That's well worth a read.
FriedGreenTomatoes2
I listened to Harvard speak out on the issue on a panel on tv last year. I was embarrassed for them. How they couldn’t read the room.
Missing the point.
I'm sure there are many broad areas where one would agree or disagree on what has been said by someone last year on a TV panel.
But what we are facing is a "deplatforming" attack on anyone and everyone who disagrees with Trumps ideologies, policies, and the way he is disassembling a once rightly proud democracy.
True news story shows America still lives good despite Trump:
www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ice-tries-detain-man-tennessee-home-neighbors-form-human-chain-n1032791?fbclid=IwY2xjawJvGVdleHRu
Grannylynj
You have a lot to say
And thank goodness she takes the time and trouble to say it!
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