Sycamore Gap tree verdict

news.sky.com/story/sycamore-gap-what-we-know-about-two-men-who-cut-down-famous-treeGraham was facing eviction after Cumberland Council had rejected his application to live in his caravan at Millbeck Stables in April 2023.

He ran his business from the caravan and neighbours objected to the "large commercial vehicles", which would drive in and out of the rural site.

In planning documents, the parish council objected to his application, saying that neighbours and planning officials had "felt threatened by the dominant and oppressive behaviour displayed by the proposer".

Planning documents also showed that council tax had not been paid on the caravan.

Graham, who had lived on the site since he bought it in 2016, had told planning officials then he would use the caravan as a "tea/bait room" but had instead lived in it without authorisation.and-their-possible-motive-13364492

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Anniebach

I have always thought public opinion was a factor in all criminal cases

Absolutely not. The vast majority of criminal cases go through the court system and sentencing without most members of the public even knowing about them, apart from those directly involved in the case itself. It's usually only the more high profile cases which attract the attention of the general public.

If you look at the sentencing guidelines, there is every chance these two will go to jail:

www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/crown-court/item/criminal-damage-other-than-by-fire-value-exceeding-5000-racially-or-religiously-aggravated-criminal-damage/

Culpability demonstrated by one or more of the following

A – High culpability

• High degree of planning or premeditation
• Revenge attack
• Intention to cause very serious damage to property
• Intention to create a high risk of injury to persons

Harm

The level of harm is assessed by weighing up all the factors of the case.

Category 1

• Serious distress caused
• Serious consequential economic or social impact of offence
• High value of damage

The starting point for A1 is a one year six months prison sentence with a range from six months to four years. There is no scope for a high level community order.

The difference between A1 and B1 (which does give scope for a community order) is whether there was intention to cause very serious damage to property or recklessness as to whether very serious damage caused to property.

They went to the site with the intention of cutting down the tree. It was premeditated. There is no doubt in my mind that this is category A.

A2 would give scope for a high level communtiy order but that would require the harm of the offence to be placed somewhere between:

Category 1

• Serious distress caused
* Serious consequential economic or social impact of offence
* High value of damage

Category 2

• Harm that falls between categories 1 and 3

* Category 3

No or minimal distress caused
Low value damage

The value of the damage has been estimated at £450,000 although the defence argued it was much less than that.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly38wr66dro

While the value of the damage is debatable we can’t underestimate the social impact of the crime.

In addition, damage caused to heritage and/or cultural assets is an aggravating factor in sentencing. Mitigating factors include assistance to the prosecution - which their tissue of lies and blameshifting didn’t do.

I wish they would give custodial sentences for the deliberate destruction of trees. Near the coast there are cases of developers ignoring preservation orders and destroying trees because they impede the view for very expensive properties. They are given heavy fines, but they simply add that to the cost of the development. It is the disregard for the law that is important and needs to be severely punished.

Franski

Wonder why they did it..?

I heard a tree surgeon (who clearly loves trees and tries to save them) speak on the radio about the "rush" of adrenaline when you (have to) fell a big tree... he talked about once having to fell a plane tree. He was very honest... He thought they did it for the "kicks".

Years ago (many years ago) I knew a Canadian research student who was researching a way to mechanically plant tree saplings. He had spent 100s of hours in the forests of Canada with logging teams and although he was a fount of knowledge on all things nature and a strong campaigner (even then) for the environment- he once described the thrill of taking down a big tree.
I have never forgotten his description.

I'm sure the tree surgeon is right and this pair of vandals wanted to experience the thrill of the felling. They probably (I guess) egged each other on.

I have always thought public opinion was a factor in all criminal cases

Public opinion does seem to be a factor in sentencing and maybe that isn’t always a bad thing. During child protections conferences, Convictions for criminal damage were seen as relevant offences along with those of violence/substance possession/drink driving etc . My understanding was the relevance linked to either aggressive, out of control behaviour or deliberate damage to something important o the victim.

I’m not a supporter of prison sentences, I’ve always believed we imprison too many people who don’t pose a threat to others. This is such an unusual case, with denial of responsibility in the face of clear evidence, no remorse or honesty from either defendant so I’m not surprised hmp on the cards

"Most of those baying for the blood of the 2 men are just peeved as they no longer have a spot to take yet another ridiculous selfy for their pathetic social -media page"

I've never been to Sycamore Gap but I can appreciate how extraordinary and beautiful a place it was. I can also appreciate how much it meant to the many people who have become engaged there, spent special moments there and scattered their loved one's ashes in that peaceful spot.

For many people it was much more than a selfie photo opportunity. If you love nature it is very important to you.

I hope they are not dismissed as idiots but treated as grown men who went out with the intent to destroy something important. People were angry when the Colston statue was felled - why should they not be when a tree, especially a rare or important tree is felled?

Allira you could be onto something, a long community service sentence planting lots and lots of trees!😄

Galaxy

That teacher will absolutely hurt another woman when released I have no doubt about it.

He said to police not to be nice to him as he knew he was a monster, so I think you’re right.The judge said he was a very dangerous man.

That teacher will absolutely hurt another woman when released I have no doubt about it.

It's quite feckless to cut down a tree, I think it is absolutely about class and money, and possibly something about public opinion.

Cutting down this tree needs a community type sentence and a fine, certainly not jailtime.

The judge will decide.

I'd give a sentence of years of supervised tree planting!
But I am not the judge.

I believe it’s many more than one wrong sentence.Just today on BBC online news, a British teacher jailed for 12 years for the most ferocious attack with a knife on his ex girlfriend, also a teacher, in Bath. He stabbed her 15 times and it took five men to pull him off her and disarm him, and even then he was trying to strangle her.A miracle that she survived.Somehow he was found not guilty of attempted murder.
Another case, a young man catfished and blackmailed teenagers to send pics of sexual acts to him, lots and lots of offences btw not just a handful.He got 31 months in prison and another 31 months out on license.
Cutting down this tree needs a community type sentence and a fine, certainly not jailtime.

Galaxy

Maybe not but you can see why people worry about injustice with regard to sentencing. The wealthy middle class powerful man or the feckless lower class, it's interesting I think.

I have no idea what was in the mind of thst judge but I don't think it has anything to do with wealth or class.

Who said these two men were feckless?
One at least ran a business. The other is a mechanic.

Ilovedogs22

Yes mumofmadboys, it is time for commonsense. Social media & mass hysteria are turning people into a moronic gang of stupidity & encouraging a sense of communal, hysterical, overactive outrage!
The men were idiots not ruddy serial killers! 🤔

Does that include the judge who has told them they may expect a custodial sentence?
🤔

Maybe not but you can see why people worry about injustice with regard to sentencing. The wealthy middle class powerful man or the feckless lower class, it's interesting I think.

mumofmadboys

The judge may need to seek advice as there will be very little if any precedent I would imagine.

I would hope for a suspended sentence, bound over and community service

Galaxy

It was awful, but Huw Edwards for example received a suspended sentence, I know who I would rather have out in society.

Just because one sentence was wrong doesn't mean others should be let off the appropriate sentence for the crime.

It was awful, but Huw Edwards for example received a suspended sentence, I know who I would rather have out in society.

Agree Marg75,a truly awful thing to do

This tree was growing in a particular spot that made a beautiful landscape and two mindless morons came along and cut it down Why would anyone do that, it's a truly awful thing to do. I know they didn't murder anybody but they have to be punished or other mindless morons will destroy anything they choose to.

I agree that community service might be more appropriate in some cases but like Allira I reckon, moron thinks as moron does.

Ilovedogs22

Yes mumofmadboys, it is time for commonsense. Social media & mass hysteria are turning people into a moronic gang of stupidity & encouraging a sense of communal, hysterical, overactive outrage!
The men were idiots not ruddy serial killers! 🤔

Ridiculous post.

mumofmadboys

The judge may need to seek advice as there will be very little if any precedent I would imagine.

They have been found guilty of two counts of criminal damage.

Criminal damage can attract a sentence of up to ten years, depending on the value of the property damaged.
How to put a price on two such iconic landmarks?

I think they do deserve custodial sentences if only to give them time to reflect. If they are not given custodial sentences they have the type of moronic brains that may think they got away with it.