The U.K. has moved on from Brexit.

M0nica

Whitewavemark2

Imo a referendum is valid until it no longer makes sense and is no longer beneficial to the country as a whole.

The 2016 referendum now neither makes sense nor is beneficial to the U.K.

It is time to move on as per the O/P

Thank you WWWmk2

That is entirely academic because there is no chance whatever of rejoining the EU for several decades at least, at that distant time we would have to accept all their rules - we are joining their club.

Starmer will succeed in some concessions but are a third country in their eyes, one of the problems is that concessions have to be approved by all members and the UK is not universally popular

Wyllow3

I shall never forget 2016 and the world turned upside down. Trump elected and Brexit.
OK....my world turned upside down - and not in a good way.

A great year for Putin whose fingerprints were all over brexit (he wanted to destabilise the EU) and Trump (his puppet - primed to inflict havoc on the US)

I’ll never forget staying awake all night as the results came through…

I shall never forget 2016 and the world turned upside down. Trump elected and Brexit.
OK....my world turned upside down - and not in a good way.

I’ve been watching a house renovation series based in Ireland and it’s really brought home to me the differences in the two countries post Brexit. One series was made during the pandemic and what was noticeable was the number of workers that they were able to bring in from Europe to work on the properties. They mentioned Brexit a lot, something that never seems to get mentioned here at all.

Although the U.K. has rolled back a bit on free movement, and saying that they would prefer it to be 18-30 year olds and 2 years - same as Australian agreement.

Not sure why.

Imo population is aging and every year the population roof,e getting older, that, with the fact that our birth rate is dropping means that we are going to be very short of working age people to keep the economy spinning along.

I would have thought that it was a no brainer to allow young people from Europe to work in the U.K. thereby contributing to our revenue, GDP and areas that are short of labour.

Absolutely, I think the EU is very open to an EU/UK SPS agreement. That doesn't appear to be so much of a sticking point, and demands have been resolved.

escaped

^Despite the ludicrous headlines in a couple of this mornings newspapers.^
Equally interesting are the headlines in French newspapers today .....
la pêche (fishing, not peaches!) risque d’être un point chaud. A toughie. 😡 😡

And the U.K. demands re - SPS and movement?

Both sides are making demands not just the French.

Despite the ludicrous headlines in a couple of this mornings newspapers.
Equally interesting are the headlines in French newspapers today .....
la pêche (fishing, not peaches!) risque d’être un point chaud. A toughie. 😡 😡

I really hope that trade barriers can be eased, not only for our prosperity but as a red tape cutting exercise.

The sticky issue is Macron leading his bee in the bonnet charge that EU fishermen can fish in British waters as part of the deal. He was asking for an extension for this on Friday. Don't forget he has been in the job 8 years now, Starmer just 10 months. Macron will be well-versed here, it remains to be seen how much the British will have to concede? 🤞

Whitewavemark2

So Monday.

The U.K. is meeting with EU leaders to begin talks about defence, security and procurement in order to counter Putin’s aggression and the USA’s retreat from global leadership.

There will of course as you would expect some hurdles to be crossed which hopefully will be resolved over the coming months, like commercial interests, trying to tie agreements in with other issues etc. and most will point to France and Fish, but the U.K. is trying to do the same with SPS and I’m sure other countries will be doing the same.

But the talks are off the ground and will, hopefully over the coming months begin to mark a turning point in our relationship with Europe.

👏👏👏
Despite the ludicrous headlines in a couple of this mornings newspapers.

Given that economic growth is important to our future leaving the EU as our largest trading partner was a monumental mistake, putting up barriers to trade. Starmer is on the right track but we need to rejoin the customs union and single market on the best terms we can get. The Tories should be ashamed of their ludicrous performance under the Buffoon.

Same Casdon🤞🤞🤞

I sincerely hope so Whitewavemark2.

So Monday.

The U.K. is meeting with EU leaders to begin talks about defence, security and procurement in order to counter Putin’s aggression and the USA’s retreat from global leadership.

There will of course as you would expect some hurdles to be crossed which hopefully will be resolved over the coming months, like commercial interests, trying to tie agreements in with other issues etc. and most will point to France and Fish, but the U.K. is trying to do the same with SPS and I’m sure other countries will be doing the same.

But the talks are off the ground and will, hopefully over the coming months begin to mark a turning point in our relationship with Europe.

It is valid until the next one.
Not sure that is just my opinion. It is a legal fact I would have thought?

I breaking my rule here of even talking about the subject.

Whitewavemark2

Imo a referendum is valid until it no longer makes sense and is no longer beneficial to the country as a whole.

The 2016 referendum now neither makes sense nor is beneficial to the U.K.

It is time to move on as per the O/P

Thank you WWWmk2

Our negotiations with the EU would be put on a very different footing if we were prepared to say that after nearly 10 years the world has changed so much, the electorate has changed so much, we are now in a completely different place to where we were in 2016 and in these changed circumstances we want o negotiate a deal that brings us as close to the EU as possible.

Negotiation is a good idea, but it’s not a referendum and we have no verifiable evidence that the current electorate would bother to vote either way.

Last time, CBB attitude of over 1,000,000 voters meant that leave won (although we don’t know how the CBB voters would have voted if they had voted).

Also, judging by the responses from current EU members, their negotiations with us would equally say,

that after nearly 10 years the world has changed so much, we are now in a completely different place from where we were in 2016, and in these changed circumstances we want to negotiate a deal that brings the best possible outcome for the current EU as possible.

Kemi B said, about Monday's EU summit, “whenever Labour negotiates Britain loses”. I do hope that isn't the case, but exactly what are the concessions going to have to be for Britain to be able to renegotiate? What are we going to have to give in on? There's already last minute discord over the EU wanting its students to pay lower British tuition fee rates to study. This could cost the UK billions. Then Macron and his unrelenting demands that EU fishermen can fish in British waters as part of a trade deal. Etc.

The UK really has to get inside the heads of those in the EU in order to understand that they will be pretty stubborn about all this, we've seen that attitude in previous negotiations. Good luck to Starmer, but I'm not holding my breath.

Imo a referendum is valid until it no longer makes sense and is no longer beneficial to the country as a whole.

The 2016 referendum now neither makes sense nor is beneficial to the U.K.

It is time to move on as per the O/P

I haven't said anywhere how long I think a referendum should be valid because I do not know. That is why I keep asking about it.

Our negotiations with the EU would be put on a very different footing if we were prepared to say that after nearly 10 years the world has changed so much, the electorate has changed so much, we are now in a completely different place to where we were in 2016 and in these changed circumstances we want o negotiate a deal that brings us as close to the EU as possible.

The situation has changed for the EU, the war in Ukraine, Trump becoming President and his intention of withdrawing from the defence of Europe, or at least expecting to be paid for his contribution. Europe has, as in the past, got to look only to itself for its defence, and, even though the British army, has shrunk to frighteningly low numbers, the facts remain that it is still considered one of the best trained, best led armies in the world and, in the absence of the USA, the EU countries need our input if they are to form a credible opponent to Russia.

We also have a big arms industry, whose weapons are needed to supply any pan-European army.

You’re arguing with yourself M0nica. You chose to discuss, sorry, to explain at great length, your views on for how long a referendum should be valid.
It won’t make any difference to the result of the last referendum, if you go to the EU and tell them that you’re sorry, but the last referendum was invalid so we haven’t really left.
They won’t be interested.

Mollygo

M0nica
I haven’t answered how long a referendum should be valid for because I made no claims about how long any referendum should be valid for, so I consider your question is irrelevant.
I’m sure you have your own opinion on that.

Far from being irrelevant, how long a referendum is binding is at the centre of any discussion about whether we have moved on from Brexit.

All we can go on is that the referendum to enter the EU was in 1975 and was followed for 41 years until the Brexit referendum was held in 2016. Now it could be argued, as we have not defined how long a referendum is binding that the 2016 Brexit referendum is nul and void because the results of the 1975 referendum were/are still binding.

If that was so, it would make getting back into the EU so much easier.

The alternative is to see how far the electorate has changed since the referendum. The current registered electorate stands at around 48 million. Since 2016 6 million people have died and 7 million new names have been registered. Not all those who died were on the register of electroates, but lets be conservative and say 5 million were.

That means that 23% (5m plus 6m) of the electorate have changed since 2016. Since older people were more likely to vote leave and younger people to vote remain, even given that the proportion of young people voting is lower than older people, I think it reasonable to suggest that there are good grounds for saying that there must be strong doubts as to whether the majority of the electorate still support Brexit.

Which brings us back to the question of how long any referendum mandate should last - and if you put forward a period, on what basis is this decision made.

Emotions and preferences are not enough to make legal and political decisions. They need to be backed by facts t support them. If you believe that we should still be sticking to the results of the Brexit referendum. Justify it with facts.

I don't think it should be on the government's agenda as it affects so few (generally quite affluent) people.

I hate to disappoint you, but this is in nearly every newspaper today:
Britain asks to rejoin EU pet passport scheme.
UK officials push for cats and dogs to regain freedom of movement during Brexit reset talks.

M0nica
I haven’t answered how long a referendum should be valid for because I made no claims about how long any referendum should be valid for, so I consider your question is irrelevant.
I’m sure you have your own opinion on that.