Reform activists depict female cabinet ministers as cows in abattoir.

I see that growstuff has started a new thread for education so that may now be a better place for anyone with something to say about education generally than this one, as presumably was her reason for it.
Or will I be accused again of being the thread police🤔

Churchview

*schools raise aspirations too much*

My observation of comprehensive schools in the 1970s is that their biggest failing was the dearth of aspiration for the pupils.

My husband and I were working class kids from council estates. Our careers advice was that we would be found, 'nice blue collar jobs'. Despite this we both built successful professional careers. What could my cohort of students have achieved if we'd been inspired to achieve our potential?

Churning out children purely to fuel the workforce comes at a huge opportunity cost. Encourage innovation, aspirations, dreams and who knows where our country might go.

I think you're 'at odds with the majority' David49 because of your blinkers, not your breadth of vision.

It is the limitation, the failure to encourage aspiration, excellen and critical thinking that has resulted in an electorate who will vote against their best interests - including voting for a party that call women cows destined for the abattoir.

My girls' grammar school in the 1950/60s just wanted to produce more teachers. If you did not want to teach, then "you would be wasting a place at university. There's the door."

Every sensible person agrees that Reforms comment was offensive, but as far as I know was not a criminal offence, it comes with the job many will get abuse face to face or online you have to shrug it off.

How exactly does suggesting that female politicians are cows that should be killed differ from online messages inciting violence against a section of society and that they, too, should be killed? I understand people have gone to prison for the latter.
What is the difference?

If anyone wants to get back to Reform it’s easy enough to do.
I do keep saying that if the government doesn’t listen to concerns then Reform hardly have to do anything to get more votes, it will just happen, as in my view it can’t be said too many times.

Schools should of course encourage aspiration , academic excellence and critical thinking but they know themselves that out of a class of 30 there isn’t going to be 50% of pupils able to attain a good University place ( which is why they had to create the not so good Universities in the first place.) That’s where the technical schools, and poly’s came in with a good role to play and apprenticeships.
All that’s happened is that those with a good degree from a good University will still get a job but the others could easily end up working in a shop or any other job which they could have easily got at 18, without lumbering themselves with a massive debt.

David49

Oreo

I know you are fine with it David49 but it isn’t right.
I too wonder why the education system is being defended so much when it’s well known that schools have too many pupils and not enough teachers and that teachers are demoralised by the job for many reasons.That many schools have a lot of problem students and teachers are targeted and verbally abused, sometimes physically abused by students and their parents.Girls go to school near me with skirts up to their backsides, thick make up and hair extensions and boys chuck their sweet wrappers, cans and vapes into my tiny front garden.
Not all schools have a lot of problems but a good number of state schools do and I can’t imagine why anyone wants to teach other than in really good schools, or the private sector.

I’m at odds with the majority because I see activity in efficiency and economic terms, not wasting resources, education policy should be much more directed to the needs of the nation, you can bet our competitors do just that. If you want more teachers/nurses/engineers give incentives for education (free tuition) in those areas, improve working conditions, improve status and pay.

Education policy is not about individual attainment, providing everything that a student “wants”, schools raise aspirations too much, they gauge success on the proportion going to university regardless of later achievement. A high proportion of graduates are accumulating debt, spend 3 or 4 yrs studying a subject, not finding graduate employment, they disappointed, student loans are not repaid.

Many ( more than a few) Universities are offering low quality courses to fill bums on seats, far more control on course quality should be made with the emphasis on employment prospects. The reasons students go to university is to improve their lifestyle by learning a skill and earning higher wages, not to provide wages for university staff.

Agree with every word, which means I’m against the majority on this thread too.
Looking back Blair’s education policy of wanting 50% of school leavers to enter university was ridiculous and has let down so many young people over the years.
Only now are people seeming to realise that it was the wrong decision for so many students and that other avenues should have been put forward for them.

excellence.

schools raise aspirations too much

My observation of comprehensive schools in the 1970s is that their biggest failing was the dearth of aspiration for the pupils.

My husband and I were working class kids from council estates. Our careers advice was that we would be found, 'nice blue collar jobs'. Despite this we both built successful professional careers. What could my cohort of students have achieved if we'd been inspired to achieve our potential?

Churning out children purely to fuel the workforce comes at a huge opportunity cost. Encourage innovation, aspirations, dreams and who knows where our country might go.

I think you're 'at odds with the majority' David49 because of your blinkers, not your breadth of vision.

It is the limitation, the failure to encourage aspiration, excellen and critical thinking that has resulted in an electorate who will vote against their best interests - including voting for a party that call women cows destined for the abattoir.

only private schools seem to be getting it right

Well there’s a surprise, state schools have much larger classes than private schools. They have better resources across every subject area. They won’t be managing a class of year 4 pupils, 4 diagnosed as dyslexic, three as on the autism spectrum like the one my grandson attends. He’s diagnosed as needing specialist input and support with significant dyslexia. The head is sympathetic but there’s no money for TA’s, so Mr X manages his class single handed. Ridiculous, but there we are.
I’m not ‘defending’ our education system but I’m suggesting like every other area of public service, it needs investment.

There not their.

David49

Elegran

"It’s the same abuse as calling a man a Fat Pig or a Dirty Dog, by commonly heard obscenities today a fairly mild insult."

How many male deputy prime ministers, chancellors, and education secretaries have been portrayed as a group of fat pigs heading for the abbatoir to be turned into bacon?

Trump and Johnson have been called much worse, in any case the reference to cows is probably more often used by a woman as a mild insult to another woman, calling police “pigs” is commonplace, male or female.

Every sensible person agrees that Reforms comment was offensive, but as far as I know was not a criminal offence, it comes with the job many will get abuse face to face or online you have to shrug it off.

But only "as far as you know" David49. Others are perfectly within their rights to challenge your so-called "knowledge".

Sadly their will always small groups of extremists. It's the bias of the press who don't hold such groups to account that I find most worrying. A slight upward trend in America, towards some of the Orange Messiah's strongest news allies dropping him, at least gives some hope that we will see a turn in these so called "leaders" followers before unchangeable damage us done.

Oreo

I know you are fine with it David49 but it isn’t right.
I too wonder why the education system is being defended so much when it’s well known that schools have too many pupils and not enough teachers and that teachers are demoralised by the job for many reasons.That many schools have a lot of problem students and teachers are targeted and verbally abused, sometimes physically abused by students and their parents.Girls go to school near me with skirts up to their backsides, thick make up and hair extensions and boys chuck their sweet wrappers, cans and vapes into my tiny front garden.
Not all schools have a lot of problems but a good number of state schools do and I can’t imagine why anyone wants to teach other than in really good schools, or the private sector.

I’m at odds with the majority because I see activity in efficiency and economic terms, not wasting resources, education policy should be much more directed to the needs of the nation, you can bet our competitors do just that. If you want more teachers/nurses/engineers give incentives for education (free tuition) in those areas, improve working conditions, improve status and pay.

Education policy is not about individual attainment, providing everything that a student “wants”, schools raise aspirations too much, they gauge success on the proportion going to university regardless of later achievement. A high proportion of graduates are accumulating debt, spend 3 or 4 yrs studying a subject, not finding graduate employment, they disappointed, student loans are not repaid.

Many ( more than a few) Universities are offering low quality courses to fill bums on seats, far more control on course quality should be made with the emphasis on employment prospects. The reasons students go to university is to improve their lifestyle by learning a skill and earning higher wages, not to provide wages for university staff.

Casdon

Yes Oreo, so you tell us frequently. Do you wonder, that being your assumption, that we are talking about Reform’s actions on this thread?

So long as we obey Oreo's thread policing rules we can talk about what we like, I suppose. We will be misrepresented as 'defending' the education system, and 'attacking' David when nobody has done either of those things, but let's not worry about that?

"Not all schools have a lot of problems but a good number of state schools do and I can’t imagine why anyone wants to teach other than in really good schools, or the private sector"

My first DH taught in a primary school in the worst "dump them estate" multi racial primary school in inner city Manchester and taught a class of kids who were basically taken out of the main classes.
I'm not sure they could do this now but it was definitely best option for both the kids and the school. Basically a different kind of teaching job for someone liking those sort of challenges and empathy for them. I doubt he was a one off, more a different job.

Oreo

On Reform, there are four years to go before a GE but both Labour and Conservatives need to be worried, start listening and start doing something about concerns otherwise Reform will be sliding into Number Ten which will be disastrous.

Yes, they need to take note asap!!

Yes Oreo, so you tell us frequently. Do you wonder, that being your assumption, that we are talking about Reform’s actions on this thread?

On Reform, there are four years to go before a GE but both Labour and Conservatives need to be worried, start listening and start doing something about concerns otherwise Reform will be sliding into Number Ten which will be disastrous.

I know you are fine with it David49 but it isn’t right.
I too wonder why the education system is being defended so much when it’s well known that schools have too many pupils and not enough teachers and that teachers are demoralised by the job for many reasons.That many schools have a lot of problem students and teachers are targeted and verbally abused, sometimes physically abused by students and their parents.Girls go to school near me with skirts up to their backsides, thick make up and hair extensions and boys chuck their sweet wrappers, cans and vapes into my tiny front garden.
Not all schools have a lot of problems but a good number of state schools do and I can’t imagine why anyone wants to teach other than in really good schools, or the private sector.

Oreo

Grandmabatty

There's little point in arguing with certain posters. There's a pattern. They make sweeping generalisations on every thread. People correct their 'truth' and they double down, attack posters with irrelevant points which are never backed up with relevant statistics or research and they never apologise for being wrong. They are quite convinced in their arrogance that they say it therefore it must be.

It’s David49 that’s getting attacked by posters not anyone else!
Your comments are extremely unfair.

I really don’t mind, I’m just mystified why the existing education system is being defended so vigourously.

Hear, hear Casdon 👏👏👏

love0c we can have more than one thought in our heads at the same time!

The one in charge definitely wouldn't put up roadsides booths mocking and threatening women politicians. And much more, and many of us don't want to go down the Reform route: more elections are coming up, its a current topic.

But I'll join a discussion on your outline of the big hole in an O/P.

love0c it is possible to worry about both Reform and other issues you know? There’s no need to try to deflect or to shut down the discussion because you don’t like what’s being said on this thread, it happens to us all.
Why not tell us what you think about the topic this post is actually about instead?

Why worry about a paty that is not in charge? Worry about the one that is! Starmer most certainly is a worry. A hig one! The hole he is putting us in is getting deeper and deeper!!!!

Putting a thread back to the OP is easy btw.

I agree with him about a lot of state schools and feel sorry for the teachers.Only the private schools seem to be getting things right with respect and discipline and pupils achieving really well.