Reform activists depict female cabinet ministers as cows in abattoir.

Iam64

Churchview

Grandmabatty

Gradgrind comes to mind. Can see the cost of everything but not the value.

Absolutely this. I heard Oscar Wilde's quote in my head earlier when reading this thread.

And what makes you so sure you’re right about everything David

And what makes you so sure you’re right about everything David
Need I explain 😃

This thread is becoming like chewing the cud!

Slavery used to be considered vital to the economy of the American south, so much so that it was a crime to teach a slave to read and write, in case it made them uppity enough to abscond to freedom and getting paid for their toil.

David49 I can't believe that you think education should necessarily have any links to the economy.

I am thinking that no education is wasted.

Education serving the needs of the economy?
Ideal if you are a Victorian mill owner.
For the rest of us in the twenty first century, see M0nica's thoughts above.

Hear hear Monica

Well said MOnica

David49

“This is an even narrower style of education than your image of current schools' attitudes and policies. Clearly it would take too long to re-educate you on the aims of education and the reasons so few of those receiving that education are motivated to train in passing it on to the next generation, and then to continue trying to do so for the rest of their working life”

That is exactly the UKs problem, the education system is trying to do too much and failing, state funding should concentrate on the priorities of the economy.

Everything I see of our education system is that it is doing very well in the face of incredible difficulty.

It is worth remembering that the great flowering of British creativity that was the 1960s, which took British designers, pop stars and inventors into the world stratospheres was done by people whose school curriculum included art, music, woodwork and cooking where schools were not tied down by a national curriculum.

We need to get back to a broader curriculum that encourages creativity and makes children want to learn and explore. We do not need gradgrinds. That is what we have AI for.

Churchview

Grandmabatty

Gradgrind comes to mind. Can see the cost of everything but not the value.

Absolutely this. I heard Oscar Wilde's quote in my head earlier when reading this thread.

And what makes you so sure you’re right about everything David

Grandmabatty

Gradgrind comes to mind. Can see the cost of everything but not the value.

Absolutely this. I heard Oscar Wilde's quote in my head earlier when reading this thread.

Elegran

David Why not move over to the "What is education" thread discussing this point? or maybe read HG Wells "The Time Machine".

Why not all posters move over to the education thread if they want to continue talking about it?

Grandmabatty

Gradgrind comes to mind. Can see the cost of everything but not the value.

Yes. Rounded human beings able to think reasonably critically and curiously and humanely - a basic enough knowledge of our society, history, politics....

the worth of education which is not strictly heading for a vocation misses out crucial elements.

Gradgrind comes to mind. Can see the cost of everything but not the value.

David Why not move over to the "What is education" thread discussing this point? or maybe read HG Wells "The Time Machine".

Why do you see humans as slaves to the economy? Who do you think benefits from that, and what do you think those who don't rely on state funding for education would choose to do?

“This is an even narrower style of education than your image of current schools' attitudes and policies. Clearly it would take too long to re-educate you on the aims of education and the reasons so few of those receiving that education are motivated to train in passing it on to the next generation, and then to continue trying to do so for the rest of their working life”

That is exactly the UKs problem, the education system is trying to do too much and failing, state funding should concentrate on the priorities of the economy.

Churchview

*schools raise aspirations too much*

My observation of comprehensive schools in the 1970s is that their biggest failing was the dearth of aspiration for the pupils.

My husband and I were working class kids from council estates. Our careers advice was that we would be found, 'nice blue collar jobs'. Despite this we both built successful professional careers. What could my cohort of students have achieved if we'd been inspired to achieve our potential?

Churning out children purely to fuel the workforce comes at a huge opportunity cost. Encourage innovation, aspirations, dreams and who knows where our country might go.

I think you're 'at odds with the majority' David49 because of your blinkers, not your breadth of vision.

It is the limitation, the failure to encourage aspiration, excellen and critical thinking that has resulted in an electorate who will vote against their best interests - including voting for a party that call women cows destined for the abattoir.

I agree with this 100%.

Everything you say is why I don't believe that any education system can raise aspirations too much. We should all have aspirations and a motive to achieve them. We should accept that not everyone will manage to get to the top, but work towards a situation where anyone can try.

It's little things like being able to sniff out misrepresentations of others' words (eg claims that those who have knowledge of education are 'satisfied' with it when they are simply explaining that the specific attacks on it are not valid) that give people a voice. Fitting people for a workplace where they do as they are told and question nothing leads to an unequal society with no way out for the majority.

Sorry Silverbrooks I got caught up in the derailing....

I started it so that people could discuss the issues which have hijacked the topic of this one.

Thanks growstuff.

There is more to be said about the topic of the thread - all part of the misogyny inherent in the way Reform operates whatever PR optics they try e.g. Tory defectors Andrea Jenkyns and Sarah Pochin placed in clear camera shot at the recent press conference. To be fair Luke Campbell was also in shot and looked terrified, as well he might. Did he think that becoming a Metro Mayor was about wearing a chain like a Lonsdale Belt?

I was planning a reply to Alllira’s post timestamped 10:07:42, about what constitutes a public order offence and why some warrant a custodial sentence but it’s seems pointless while we have all these posts about the education system swamping the thread.

Farage, like Trump, is Putin's puppet and has his strings pulled to demand attention by pushing the boundaries of decency to damage our society.

Yes, back to Reform, or maybe not as they will like any publicity at all? Who knows.
Sometimes stunts work and sometimes not and it will depend on Farage and what he warns his Party to do or not do.

Some of the "not so good" universities were excellent polytechnics until John Major in 1992. Delivering good vocational courses. Changed because they wanted students to have "parity" qualification wise, and also because Polytechnics were funded by the local LA and not centrally.

A lot was lost on the vocational side however, it could have been done differently. Then "metrics" begun to count, ie universities judged "by results" which again looked for academic excellence as the prime measure of a "good" university. Subjects which weren't really measurable in this way feel by the wayside even more.

Then since around 2010, and especially in the 2010s, the landscape of university metrics has become more complex and sophisticated.

This includes more nuanced measures of research impact, student outcomes, and international collaboration. Universities get funded according to things like research papers by staff and taking part in Erasmus. Again, this pushed vocational subjects further down priorities. Academics have to churn out research papers to get better funding.

Its no accident that just 2 years after abolishing polytechnics - 1994 - the self serving Russell Group of universities "Set themselves up" to try and keep what was claimed to be academic excellence but was in fact a bid by to value academic subjects above all others.

Far from the new universities being "Valued" by the switch from polytechnics, for many its been a loss. but some ex-polyechnics have centres of excellence in some subjects, by the sheer efforts of staff and management of those universities.

but for vocational training its been a lose-lose. Academic snobbery still reigns, although in terms of top level research and development/collaboration with industry it's essential to have the top end parts of further education.

David "education policy should be much more directed to the needs of the nation, you can bet our competitors do just that. If you want more teachers/nurses/engineers give incentives for education (free tuition) in those areas, improve working conditions, improve status and pay.

"Education policy is not about individual attainment, providing everything that a student “wants”, schools raise aspirations too much, they gauge success on the proportion going to university regardless of later achievement."

This is an even narrower style of education than your image of current schools' attitudes and policies. Clearly it would take too long to re-educate you on the aims of education and the reasons so few of those receiving that education are motivated to train in passing it on to the next generation, and then to continue trying to do so for the rest of their working life.

Perhaps *Growstuff's" new thread at www.gransnet.com/forums/education/a1348559-What-does-education-mean (under Education) is the place for that discussion, leaving this one free to discuss the attitudes and policies of those who believe it is OK to publicly consider ANYONE (that includes politicians, male or female) as suitable abbatoir fodder.

Ggggrrr! I missed out "you".

Oreo

I see that growstuff has started a new thread for education so that may now be a better place for anyone with something to say about education generally than this one, as presumably was her reason for it.
Or will I be accused again of being the thread police🤔

For once, I won't accuse of being the thread police .

Thank you for highlighting the thread I started. As you no doubt realised, I started it so that people could discuss the issues which have hijacked the topic of this one.

If anybody is interested, it's here:

www.gransnet.com/forums/education/a1348559-What-does-education-mean (under Education).

If so, I want a taser 😁