Should wearing a burqa be banned in the UK?

Thank you Teazel2 for posting this extract from the Daily Telegraph, with which I agree. Will try to read the whole article.

I dislike the term modest when applied to clothing. It’s judgemental - what are people who do not wear ‘modest’ clothing? The antonyms of modest are not terms most women would consider complimentary.

I am also conflicted about a ban on burkas. It goes against the UK liberal stance on how we live our lives but on the other hand, a burka is a restriction on others being able to know your identity. We are generally suspicious of people wearing face-covering balaclavas or full-visor motorcycle helmets (when not riding a motorcycle). The masks we were told to wear during Covid put up a barrier between people, not being able to instantly recognise friends, isolating those who lip read and had a dreadful effect on some children, who only saw unmasked faces in their homes.

Where I live it is not common to see women in full face covering but there is one person I see regularly on a school run. She wears the eye slit type of covering plus a pair of massive headphones over the top, and I must admit, I do feel sorry for her wee little boy, who can neither see his mum properly nor easily attract her attention.

Still, though, banning seems drastic and un-British.

Teazel2

When I go to other countries I respect their customs. The same should apply here. This taken from an article in the Daily Telegraph:

Our culture, rooted in Judeo-Christian values, Enlightenment reason and the hard won principle of sexual equality, has made this country one of the most tolerant and liberal on earth. But tolerance cannot mean indifference. A society that tolerates everything, even its own erosion, will not survive.

there is a longer article in today’s Daily Telegraph for those interested.

Exactly.

SporeRB

I find Muslim women wearing niqabs quite intimidating especially in black. Black is such an oppressive colour.

I do not see the niqab/burqa as an expression of faith, more an expression of the culture of the country she came from.

As to whether burqa should be banned, I am not sure. What I like most about living in the UK is you can do whatever you like, wear whatever you fancy, even becomes an eccentric and there is no pressure from society to conform.

A man should never tell a woman what she should or should not wear.

Many years ago, I went to the office and my boss approached me and said, out of the blue, that he would not be please at all if I were to start wearing the headscarf at work. Not that I would, I am not that religious.

All I said to him was my English husband never tells me what I should or should not wear, so I am going to wear what I want to wear.

This happened a long time ago during the London bombing. Someone from our office died during the bombing. Unfortunately, I am guilty by association.

I was once in a hospital car park. A woman dressed all in black wearing a birqa came sweeping across the tarmac at me, making me a little nervous.
As she approached she waved a parking permit and said there was an hour left on it if I wanted to use it!
I thanked her for her kindness and learned a very important lesson...

Thats dreadful and so sad, SporeRB

I find Muslim women wearing niqabs quite intimidating especially in black. Black is such an oppressive colour.

I do not see the niqab/burqa as an expression of faith, more an expression of the culture of the country she came from.

As to whether burqa should be banned, I am not sure. What I like most about living in the UK is you can do whatever you like, wear whatever you fancy, even becomes an eccentric and there is no pressure from society to conform.

A man should never tell a woman what she should or should not wear.

Many years ago, I went to the office and my boss approached me and said, out of the blue, that he would not be please at all if I were to start wearing the headscarf at work. Not that I would, I am not that religious.

All I said to him was my English husband never tells me what I should or should not wear, so I am going to wear what I want to wear.

This happened a long time ago during the London bombing. Someone from our office died during the bombing. Unfortunately, I am guilty by association.

In the USA - knew this but needed to confirm -

"Some Christian denominations, particularly those within the conservative Anabaptist, Holiness Pentecostal, and Reformed/Presbyterian traditions, have specific dress codes for women, emphasising modesty and simplicity.

These codes often include requirements for ankle-length skirts or dresses, blouses up to the collar, and head coverings.

Sound familiar?

Oh yes - I had a woman Iran friend until she moved - she'd lived through those days of freedoms, she was an artist and although married, westernised , demonstrations out n the streets..... In fact he was the one with difficulties really). But it was partly a class and urban/rural divide. It brings home to me not just how different it is in different countries, but how times change too. Some seem to go "back" but Saudi women are going "forward". A Yemeni woman I met (student) - middle class family- most of the family have got out and are westernised too (dreadful, awful war there).

I do remember travelling from Singapore to Malacca and seeing headscarved young girls that was early 80s. Maybe I should have added Malaysian mother I knew was married to a westerner.

Some of us will have viewed photos of women in Afghanistan and Iran in the '70s going to work in blouses and skirts, before the clock was turned back to the Middle ages.

TerriBull Sadly, today, a Malaysian Musli mum would be wearing a headscarf and 'modest dress'. So different from Malaya when I ived there as a child.

I agree the wave of immigration from the Indian sub continent back in the 70s the women didn't wear the burka. In fact it was viewed as an anomoly associated with women, often visiting from the Middle East when they were in London. New wave of immigration from places such as Somalia have embedded the more draconian aspects of Islam. A Malaysian Muslim mum down at the school gates when our children were young would be wearing the shortest of shorts on hot days. The Islamic religion encompasses many different aspects to it, like Christianity I guess.

Mollygo

Re small things that change attitudes
Back when I was first teaching in Liverpool, only fathers came, or mothers who brought their children to parent evenings to translate, because many of the mothers were slow to learn English as they were confined to the house and mostly mixing with each other.
At least that has changed somewhat, in that more of them go out to work and mixing is more usual, so their ability to communicate is not a problem for most.
But back then, none of the mothers I dealt with wore full face coverings or even niqabs.
One limitation exchanged for another?

Interesting. What I did reflect on your post .......was that maybe it depends on which Muslim community we are referring to? Different countries, different cultures

For example, back in the 1970's I lived in inner city Manchester and my road had first generation Pakistanis. No burka, always a headscarf, even back then.
But recent Somalian refugee families - we've a specific community here - is where you could see the burka on some women but over the 5 years I've observed them (its close to my gym and shops so did regular drive by's at come home from school time, there are less burkas) (changed to eye views not all covered)

I think telling any human what they can and cannot wear under the guise of religious, cultural or cultural norms is completely wrong.

Whitewavemark2

OldFrill

How would any ban be enforced? Public removal? Arrest if not compliant? Prosecution? I can't see that's feasible or a worthwhile use of resources.

You need to see how it is enforced in countries who have done so.

Generally it's not, and if it is the women involved remain hidden and more ostracised from society.

Re small things that change attitudes
Back when I was first teaching in Liverpool, only fathers came, or mothers who brought their children to parent evenings to translate, because many of the mothers were slow to learn English as they were confined to the house and mostly mixing with each other.
At least that has changed somewhat, in that more of them go out to work and mixing is more usual, so their ability to communicate is not a problem for most.
But back then, none of the mothers I dealt with wore full face coverings or even niqabs.
One limitation exchanged for another?

Whitewavemark2

wyllow yes I do agree. These things are much better to be allowed to change “organically” .

Provided it doesn’t allow too much division and disruption in the meantime.

It just happens naturally when you don't "push it". I bet in my park it was the teachers deliberately setting up a "boys and girls" cricket situation but not a forced one, I looked closely and they all were having fun. It's a two way thing as well, by getting out of the area where they lived they could also see different things.

But it is a bit sad that it does change as children become teenagers and social pressures increase, but then we are dealing with another world of social media sadly.

Very much hoping its a suspension, I can't imagine a ban for FGT. We've crossed swords politically as she sometimes likes to provoke a wee bit but recently it ends up in a genuine "Pax🙂" having both got familiar with it.

Its just that as I've said before many of us have had personal difficulties but not all choose to talk about them so when it comes to "allowances being made" how on earth can GN moderators apply a "fair to all" system?

That's a good point @ 12.24 Whitewavemark. I have suggested in the past that GN don't take a reported post in isolation, especially if someone's been goaded and has reacted because of that.

A single post taken out of context with the best will in the world can be misconstrued.

wyllow yes I do agree. These things are much better to be allowed to change “organically” .

Provided it doesn’t allow too much division and disruption in the meantime.

Smileless2012

GN is a self moderated site Whitewavemark which means the members report any post they find offensive etc for GN to take a look at.

Well - yes - that is right. But if I ran/owned GN I would also run a sample post examination, to ensure that the moderators were being told of dodgy posts in a timely correct manner.

I would not want to be litigated against for missing illegality.

It could be that the system is able to pick out dodgy posts without the need to actively moderate. We don’t know.

Allira - interesting reflections indeed. its definitely the case that as the generations continue to go to school (providing its not a faith school) that girls and women (and indeed boys and men are gradually changing)

If I can share a relevant reflection, I was in my local park, which is in a nice bit of town, playing fields, basketball, play areas, footie pitch marked out and so on, and there was a visit from a school that I know has no playing fields (an old Victorian one). So nearly all the children were of Muslim origin, given where it is. It's highly Ofsead rated, as its seems that parents are fairly aspirational.

One group of children were playing a game of mixed cricket girls and boys, a few bold girls had sat near the path to see the dogs pass, (and talk to a passing stranger) some boys playing informal footie.

It's these small things that change attitudes as the children grow up. Those girls will want to be different from their grandparents, the school would not tolerate aggressive behaviour by the boys to the girls.

(its why I'm for carrots not sticks in regard to "laying down the law)"

TerriBull

I know at times her politics are too out there for some, but I like her honesty, I might not always agree, why would any of us agree about everything and anything.

My thoughts exactly.

Returning to the original subject, it may have been mooted up thread, that there are Muslim women who willingly wear the burka. I've read that one such reasoning on their part, is here in the west, society can be very judgemental about women's appearance and such apparel grants them anonymity in that respect. It's not really a good enough reason though and wearing the burka in public only garners gasps and at times criticisms for lack of assimilation. I reiterate again, it's a barrier and in certain contexts a possible security threat, face coverings have been used for insidious reasons. In any case, all that aside, I think there should be a shared sense of sisterhood with the Muslim woman who doesn't have the luxury of choice and are forced to cover up head to foot and would love to have the freedoms that their western counterparts enjoy and take for granted. No one wants to see women being forced and coerced by men, sometimes it comes in the opposite guise, Bianca Censori paraded around half naked by Kanye West, was that coercive control or merely exhibitionism? if so, the latter would demonstrate a complete lack of respect for those around them. A contrary extreme that takes no account of what is acceptable to society.

GN is a self moderated site Whitewavemark which means the members report any post they find offensive etc for GN to take a look at.

Wyllow3

Back to the burka, a poster pointed out that we don't really want to import this sort of restriction on women, but that did make me think,

"but for the women coming, it may give them a chance to leave that sort of thinking behind by coming here"

Their daughters might learn a different perspective if they have been to school here, unless it's a religious school, but often it sounds like the controlling of women by their menfolk.