Should wearing a burqa be banned in the UK?

Nannee49

The whole massive topic of cultural differences needs airing. As a society with real, hard won freedoms, we do need to examine any cultural practices which cause hurt, harm, distress, worse.
It's all very well to say "most burka wearers I know just pop it on for the school run" without examining what would happen if they didn't pop it on.
We all have to get along with mutual respect but it can't flow all one way. If the burka has no religious significance which needs to be respected then it is just another cultural practice hypocritically hiding behind the sanctity of a creed.
If it was banned would it be an act of freedom for women chafing under the oppression of it?

We all have to get along with mutual respect but it can't flow all one way. If the burka has no religious significance which needs to be respected then it is just another cultural practice hypocritically hiding behind the sanctity of a creed.

You have said it so much more eloquently than I could have done.

We are examining (loosely) Islam, specifically, in this thread - but the principle must apply to any religion or creed that imposes limits on individual human rights. If we make an exception for one, then justifiably, people will question that and demand similar exceptions. Then the whole concept of freedom / human rights, is lost.

There is the law of the U.K. and there is the “spirit of GN” (whatever that is)

So when someone is banned, one has to assume that GN has deemed that , that person has broken one or both of the rules.

I also suspect that they may have received prior warnings about posts - although I don’t know. But banning someone for one post seems a tad excessive.

The law allows freedom of speech except

Legal Limitations and Restrictions:
Hate Speech:
Laws prohibit speech that incites hatred or violence against individuals or groups based on various factors, such as race, religion, or sexual orientation.
Defamation:
Defamatory statements, both libelous (written) and slanderous (spoken), are not protected and can lead to legal action.
Incitement to Violence:
Speech that incites violence or illegal activities is not protected and can have legal consequences.
Public Order:
The Public Order Act 1986 addresses threatening or abusive words or conduct that could cause harassment, alarm, or distress.
Other Restrictions:
Limitations also exist for things like obscenity, pornography, copyright violation, and breaches of privacy.

So given the topic, I suspect that rule about hate speech was broken, but I could be wrong.

Yep...re what people are wearing in Britain....and admits I struggle to get my head round why people sometimes don't adapt their way of dressing accordingly (if only because our climate dictates a certain way of dressing).

Cue for emigrating to Denmark in the early 1970s (errr yep I came back again a few months later....) and I went out there with long hair, heels, maxi dress of the time. I took a good look round and went to a hairdresser and had a "Danish" haircut (short and a bit boyish - rather than my flowing locks), bought several pairs of clogs and jeans and went a bit more "colourful" than us. It took me only a week or two before everyone was assuming I was Danish - until I opened my mouth and started speaking....

Caleo

Re banning FGT's post, Gransnet generally is over-moderated. Other interactive sites I go to are hardly moderated at all and posters sort themselves out pretty well without being dictated to by some poster who feels offended or by a sensitive mod.

I did not read any post by FGT I wish I had. I doubt if she said anything illegal. Even if she had done so ,nearly everyone here is an anonymous persona ;is it possible to slander an anonymous persona? I must ask ChatGPT !

I agree - it's not as bad as Mumsnet for that.

It does cater for this older agegroup here. I'm mentally picturing everyone else on it as being late middle aged upwards (I may - or may not - be right on that one) and it's designed specifically for this older agegroup.

With that fact = one would assume most of the people posting on here did not grow up in "politically correct times". Most of us grew to adulthood in an era like the 1970s and it feels very odd to see most of our Society watching their words and hardly daring to say anything much. Oh btw - and "we've" cancelled some of your comedy programmes and even books from that sort of era. None of us saw anything wrong with that back then and most of us still don't see anything wrong with it. If we do - then we just think "Well that was the times and it certainly made life one heck of a sight easier to say what we think - and no-one would bat an eyelid." There was no worrying whether someone trying to be fashionable and politically correct would leap on you for doing nothing wrong/saying nothing wrong.

"Freedom of speech" I remember it well #sighs. It wasn't totally the case that we had that then - as there were occasional problems (eg I remember an employer of mine complaining about a letter I'd written to our local newspaper). I answered his cheeky darn interfering comment in a polite tone of voice and just said "Writing a personal letter - as myself - in my own time and not mentioning anything to do with my job. Perfectly legal - nothing wrong with it". They still started cobbling together an excuse to "make me redundant" and did so!!!!!! So they weren't paying for my time after 5pm at night - but they acted as if they did so. Point being - there were attempts to curtail our "right to freedom of speech" even back then - but they weren't nearly as frequent and as bad as they are these days.

You make a good point there wooden spoon, I agree with you. I live in a town which has welcomed Muslims since the 1960s, you hardly ever saw women wearing the burka. I would say I saw a significant increase when our brave soldiers went to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban. To me that was an underneath way of supporting the Taliban and antagonising the natives. A previous poster said the wearing of the burka had declined but I have to disagree in my opinion it's increased.

Many Muslims in our area wear long flowing robes. The main differences between the men and the women are
1. Men tend to wear white or cream with a cute little hat. They don't wear black or other colours.
2. I’ve never seen a man wearing all-enveloping flowing robes topped with a total head covering, only women.

Although I suppose we wouldn’t know.

It isn't necessarily that we can't deal with it, it is that GN has legal obligations, so if I, for example say Caleo is a shoplifter ( sorry Caleo you were the poster above me in the thread!) then GN could face some level of responsibility if Caleo complains. I support free speech almost unconditionally but I don't really expect MN to take on the legal consequences of a free for all.

Caleo

Wyllow, There may be more of a Muslim presence online in forums for young people.

I hope women will not be oppressed forever but banning the burqa in this country is too dictatorial except as some said for reasons of public safety.

Cariad has a good attitude of curiosity towards how others live,(re trying on a burqa) and Cariad tells a good story. I hope Cariad you will not be intimidated.

Thank you for that comment.

I am curious about how and why other people live besides ourselves. Yep...I have been told often ITRW that I should be a writer - but.....errrrm....now I've finally got the time = there's AI out there doing a lot of writing - and often pretending to be a person. It's still very primitive at the moment - there was certainly an obvious error in an apparent "true life" tale on YouTube about the new pope the other day. Point of the tale being how the writer had met the Pope years before and he had predicted two things for him - one of them being he'd meet "her" in a bookshop. Errrrm....earlier in the narrative he'd already referred to a wife. So AI isn't very good at all yet - and I've caught it out often as not being a person after all that wrote something - but I know all sorts of creative people are very concerned for their careers.

Re "intimidated" - you should see who I used to work for = eek! NO chance after having them for an employer for years - and they'd got intimidation down to a T - and practiced on their own employees. Whew - that was a "job and a half" I am so delighted retirement freed me from eventually. They had a technique I referred to as "Surround Sound" - ie they would "surround" people from all sides and have a go from all sides - in every way they could think of (usually their poor employees....). I used to stand back from it mentally and analyse how they were operating - real "listen and learn" time that was...

I think reporting someone is a serious issue and the reporter should identify themselves and the reason for the report. A lot of unnecessary upset can be done to someone who has been banned.
I think it's better to let a post I believe to be offensive to stand and let others see it and respond as what is offensive to one may not be to someone else.
As we are all adults I don't think we need to be sheltered from whatever is posted on here. We can deal with it ourselves.

ChatGPT: " What is defamation under UK law?
In the UK, defamation includes:

Libel (written or published statements)

Slander (spoken statements)

Since online posts are written, they would generally fall under libel, not slander.

For a statement to be defamatory, it must:

ChatGPT:
"Lower someone in the estimation of right-thinking members of society.

Cause or be likely to cause serious harm to the person's reputation (per the Defamation Act 2013).

Be "of and concerning" a specific person. "

I was wrong then. Chat GPT includes online personas in "specific persons".

Re banning FGT's post, Gransnet generally is over-moderated. Other interactive sites I go to are hardly moderated at all and posters sort themselves out pretty well without being dictated to by some poster who feels offended or by a sensitive mod.

I did not read any post by FGT I wish I had. I doubt if she said anything illegal. Even if she had done so ,nearly everyone here is an anonymous persona ;is it possible to slander an anonymous persona? I must ask ChatGPT !

Wyllow, There may be more of a Muslim presence online in forums for young people.

I hope women will not be oppressed forever but banning the burqa in this country is too dictatorial except as some said for reasons of public safety.

Cariad has a good attitude of curiosity towards how others live,(re trying on a burqa) and Cariad tells a good story. I hope Cariad you will not be intimidated.

In response to your post last night Wyllow I was not starting an inquisition, as you put it. I said, as I am entitled to do, that the person who reported FGT should have the courage of their convictions and say what they found offensive in her post and why they reported it. IF that individual felt so strongly then they should explain why. After all, that person has the cloak of anonymity on here.

No inquisition started by me.

Indeed Wyllow

Cariad quotes from your post
There was much hilarity at an event
and seeing through that grill thing
I guess it would be easy to hide some food one was eating underneath it throughout all 12 months of the year if need be if sneaking a bar of chocolate

And that’s not making fun !!!
Ummm

I'm not surprised we have no - or few of our fellow citizens who are Muslim on GN. 😡

BlueBelle

It’s not funny Carriad and not pleasant to make a joke of someone else’s traditions

We were trying out that outfit in a spirit of genuine enquiry - ie as to how people managed/could they manage at all to "live a life" in them. Cue for one after another of us all deciding we couldnt do so. This was an intelligent and socially-conscious group of people - not a group of "lads" or "lad-esses". Just a socially conscious gathering in a morning for the purposes of trading - and he'd brought it along to see if any of us wanted to trade to get it - and we didnt.

Banning the burqua full stop would result in many women not being "allowed" out of the house at all.
But it should be banned in situations where your face/identity needs to be seen. Collecting children from nursery being one that would be crucial as well as all the bank, airport security etc etc places.

It’s not funny Carriad and not pleasant to make a joke of someone else’s traditions

Shared on twitter

Allsorts

If people want to live here but wear a Burkha find another country. We have fought hard for freedom, to be encased in a heavy outfit looking out of a visor is the opposite of that. It is oppression. Anyone who thinks it is OK, try it for a week preferably in a heatwave, on and off buses going to work etc, and if you enjoy it come back ant tell us why.

LOL.

I agree with you on that one - 101%.

There was much hilarity at an event I was at years before all this started up in Britain. One of the men had bought a burka whilst on holiday in Afghanistan and brought it with him to this. Cue for most of us couldnt resist trying it on and trying to move in it.

I tried to walk across the room in it - and seeing through that grill thing across the eyes made it very difficult to see where I was going and just the sheer amount of flowing material felt like it was trying to trip me up. None of us managed more than a few steps in it before we ripped it off and the next person tried it out. Thankfully for these Middle Eastern women that go walking round in their type of clothing here they don't usually have that eye grill thing to contend with. The only plus point is I guess it would be easy to hide some food one was eating underneath it throughout all 12 months of the year if need be if sneaking a bar of chocolate ...

Wyllow3

Allsorts

Hideous things. Note the men go around nice and cool often in western dress. how do you know enjoy in there.

Sometimes in very hot climates both men and women wear loose robes and cover their heads. We wear tents and a sun hat in summer! Surely it depends on the fabric and what you wear underneath?

Yep....but as you said it was "in very hot climate". We've not got that in this country. What we have here is you're lucky if you're warm enough and we all gasp for a bit of nice sunny weather when we get the chance of it. Add in the rain and the wind......

I'm British - but I wear long loose clothing and a loose scarf on my head if on holiday in a hot country. Cue for standing joke from locals spotting me on holiday in Turkey of "You Turkish woman?? - you dress like that". Yep....I will - in a hot country - because long/loose/flowy and a headscarf is the practical option imo.

In our country - no chance of wanting my clothes to trail in all the rain and puddles and blow around in the wind and generally be a "flow-y" nuisance to me.

"What you wear underneath" - if you're southern English (as I am) you don't want to wear more clothing than is needed for decency. So it's what you need to wear to cover-up and be warm enough and add an extra layer or two if you're someplace else in Britain with worse weather than you're used to.

It’s such a difficult subject which I keep changing my mind about I personally see it as a legitimate way to freeing women from male dominance but the reverse is what right do we have to start banning this that or the other, if people choose to live here is it right to set such harsh perimeters on their personal choice of clothes, then I go back to, but is it their personal choice or are they being kept prisoner in their clothes by males who seem to wear what they want
I m really flip flopping about this ….would it save some women as if there was a ban the men who were wanting to live here would have to conform or stay away, however that then seems totally unfair to ban something that is purported to be a religious rule for them when we are open to other religious needs

I love the fact that as a country we are open to all who want to live or visit here regardless of religion or ethnicity so where does that leave me !!

If people want to live here but wear a Burkha find another country. We have fought hard for freedom, to be encased in a heavy outfit looking out of a visor is the opposite of that. It is oppression. Anyone who thinks it is OK, try it for a week preferably in a heatwave, on and off buses going to work etc, and if you enjoy it come back ant tell us why.

I don't wear a burqa because I'm not Muslim.

I know a little about people who wear them from my time in community projects.

I did not report anybody.

Have a pleasant weekend.

If you wear a burqa how do you get a passport,bus pass ,blue badge if you need one ? Just wondered as you need to show your face .