Should wearing a burqa be banned in the UK?

“How do they eat? How do they sneeze?”

The covering (whichever) is only worn when out in a public place, not at home with members of the family.

At home clothes are bright, follow fashion and are sometimes quite skimpy😬

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I did try and find % of Muslim women wearing different coverings and they just aren't there, even across Europe. The best I could do was look at it within Saudi Arabia

Overview

Yes, the number of Saudi women wearing a burqa (or niqab, a face veil) has decreased in recent years, and the abaya (a loose cloak) is no longer required in public.

Reasons:

public policy and statements loosening rules as society edges towards more secular

Changing Cultural Attitudes
more women are choosing to wear more colorful or Western-style clothing, and the abaya is becoming more diverse in style and color.

Snap Wyllow.

Dickens Are you sure you weren't having a conversation with Andrew Tate in disguise?

"It ended with him suggesting that eventually western women would be forced to come to heel"

We have men in the West like him think Andrew Tate, think of some of the traditional Christian Sects in the USA? Just saying its not unique.

Sarnia

No. It isn't a religious requirement as far as I know. It's purpose seems to be displaying the subservience of women who wear them.

As far as I am aware, the Koran does not, explicitly, demand that women are completely covered in this way, but calls for both men and women to be covered 'modestly'.

I once saw a family group in Russel Square, London, where the women were all wearing the niqab and the loose, black, abaya, whereas the men (apart from one elder family member) were wearing tight jeans and t-shirts.

So clearly, the demand for 'modesty' didn't apply to them.

Should we care? I don't know. But it's so alien to our own culture. And, as a feminist of sorts, this subservience of women is something I find hard to accept.

Of course, someone will tell me possibly that the women might choose to dress like that. Maybe they do. But, what if they don't?

Women fight for equality, not to be treated as second-class citizens, not to be coerced by men into subservience - yet multi-culturalism demands that we make exceptions. And this, I think, is what causes problems, the problem of accepting multi-culturalism - where all cultures are supposedly equal, when clearly they aren't. At least, not if the women are being forced to wear a garment they would rather not wear.

I don't care about the men wearing western casual dress - but the hypocrisy of such men is worrying. I once had an online debate with a Muslim male about western culture. It wasn't so much what he said, but his attitude towards me, as a female with an opinion was quite unpleasant, to say the least, particularly as the conversation started quite civilly. It ended with him suggesting that eventually western women would be forced to come to heel (for want of a better way of expressing it).

... these are the issues that are not addressed, and doing so is likely to be met with accusations of bigotry. I don't know how many women dress 'modestly' either to please their men or because it's demanded of them - maybe they are a minority, there's no way of knowing. If they are doing so by choice, then that's their choice, so who's to say they should be banned from wearing the garment? Although I do agree that covering the face in institutions like nurseries, schools, etc, should be. And - do the women object? If they work in these institutions, probably not.

Aveline

So do we just take women covered up like draped faceless statues whether or not they want to be?

I don’t think we should accept it in the UK..A birqua and niqab ban would not only liberate women from a rotten culture which seeks to muffle up women while the menfolk stroll around in cool shorts and tee shirts but would help with integration in the host country.Various other countries have done it and so should we.

More "How do they actually manage to 'live their lives' whilst wearing a "shroud"? "

How do they eat? How do they sneeze? How do they lip-read someone else wearing one?

There may be a few that wear them by genuine choice - but I'd be willing to bet most of the wearers of them are doing so "by quiet force". As in I've come to the conclusion many people/maybe most people just go through life doing what is easiest not to be a "tall poppy that gets noticed - and some might cut them down". So if their relatives/husband/friends are wearing this - then I wouldnt be at all surprised if a lot of the wearers are only wearing them because of cultural pressure - rather than by informed thought-out personal choice.

Most people like to conform to what they see as "societal norms". The last 5 years were an object lesson for all of us on that front...

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202506/medium-e0u0tp-unknown.jpeg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202506/medium-dsgpct-unknown-1.jpeg

Religion wise:

Religion wise

"Why do some Muslim choose to wear a burka?

Wiki:

For some women, wearing the burqa represents modesty, piety, and cultural identity, while others choose it as an expression of personal or religious commitment.”

(I’m against “forced” wearing of course so asked why women might choose to)

I’ve posted 2 photos to show there is a difference between the full cover up that has been portrayed before upthread with what I've seen more of.

Galaxy

Lots of people complained about masks particularly in relation to children.

I was never altogether sure about the motivation for those complaints.

Lots of people complained about masks particularly in relation to children.

Wearing of religious or ethnic symbols will die out naturally as long as this is a free country.
Wearing religious symbols is done by people who have not yet learned to free themselves from ethnic or religious beliefs .

About the facial recognition thing, nobody complained during the pandemic when most people wore masks no matter where they were, indoors or out. Some people still wear masks when they leave home, presumably for medical reasons. Why bring up facial recognition only when burqas are the issue?

No. It isn't a religious requirement as far as I know. It's purpose seems to be displaying the subservience of women who wear them.

I think on balance yes. Also balaclavas with only eye-slits. I find both intimidating. Also hoodies when used as face covering but impossible to proscribe for that.
I don’t know how likely it is that women would just stay indoors rather than go outside without a burqa but I think integration is paramount and the burqa indicates a refusal to integrate.
Ban is a harsh word but in any case I would suggest a three-year lead-in for burqas, not for balaclavas.

woodenspoon

Sure lafergar. ‘These’ is used for a collective noun so ‘these people’. If it were one it would be that person. Clear enough for you?

Ha ha, you're a funny lady aren't you? Any more detail available please? I'm more or less up to speed with collective nouns.

Do you mean all immigrants, all Muslims, all female Muslims, all Muslims who wear a burqa?

Many years ago, whilst teaching English to French students, one such was a personable, erudite French deputy head of a local {comprehensive, Catholic} school. Headscarves were banned inside. When muslim girls entered the outer door, there was an inner hall where they left their coverings.
Asked subsequently did they feel "bereft", the majority said they felt "liberated".

A couple of posts have suggested that the use of burqas is declining in the UK. I don't think there is any evidence of this? Certainly where I live it has been increasing.

I don't think most of the women wearing them are making a completely free choice to wear them. They have a lot of pressure from the people around them, and some of them would probably prefer not to.

I was undecided as to whether burqas should be banned when I started reading this thread. Having read through, I think they probably should be.

Or another way to put "No - of course they should be banned here" could be to say "Just how are we supposed to see what you're thinking if your face is covered?" and, goodness knows, I see these photos of women in the full get-up and wonder how on earth they'd even recognise their friend walking down the street towards them? Would one carry a sign saying "I'm Soriah...." and the friend walking towards her carry one saying "I'm Shokria" - so they knew which "shroud" walking towards them was a friend of theirs and who wasn't?

Or do they just carry VERY distinctive handbags and message each other to say "Mine will be the sky blue pink one with a butterfly on it if you see me in the street".

That is a serious question actually - as to how they know each other when out....

lafergar

Primrose53

Yes it should be banned. In many cases they are very dangerous. Go to Leicester and see the women driving around in great big 4 x 4s with full face coverings and just a slit to see through. You can’t tell me that’s safe.

Is it the garment, the car or the people in Leicester that cause you such concern please?

I thought it was obvious.
I am talking about those huge 4 x 4s which could cause serious injury or death if the woman driving has only a narrow slit to see through. It’s half the sized of your average letterbox so imagine how little you could see.

When I lived in Norway, my local indoor shopping centre banned anyone wearing a hoodie / scarf as face covering.

Of course they could wear the hoodie garment, but they were not allowed to cover their head and face with it.

... and motor cyclists were asked to remove their helmets when entering the indoor parade of shops. Most did anyway - it must be steamy and uncomfortable inside them. But there were individuals making a quick dash in and out who kept them on.

There had not been any trouble with 'hooded' youngsters as far as I know, but the edict was made for the 'comfort and safety' of all patrons.

A very small block of flats nearby housed Syrian refugees who I believe were mostly Muslim. None wore a burka, only headscarves. Two worked in the shopping centre (in Norway, with a valid ID, asylum seekers are allowed to work - or were at the time I was there). I understand that since 2021, burkas are banned in nurseries, schools and university settings.

... but I do wonder what would have happened if a woman had appeared in the centre in a burka - can you exclude them from the ban because it's a religious dictate (or maybe it's cultural?).

In a word - "It's Britain - so yes".

petra

Some time ago I was in the waiting room of the gynae department.
With me in that department was a married couple from Afghanistan. The man was dressed in the traditional Afghan pakoi ( hat) and a shawl.
His wife had on the full burqa the women wear in Afghanistan.
It was a very odd encounter in a small room.
They went in before me and all I could think of was that poor woman was being examined by a male gynaecologist with ( I presume) her husband translating.

The woman could request a female clinician, many do. As for translating, some nhs trusts insist on their own translator . With a family member , the clinician can’t be 100% sure the family member fully understands the health situation, which can lead to serious mistakes .

woodenspoon

Wyllow3

woodenspoon

I think what value do these people bring to the UK? Nothing as far as I can see. Just problems.

"These people" are all individual human beings. Start with that humanity, the basics, what a person is like.

They may contribute much or little to our society. They may be warm.. loving.. angry and hating or in between in different ways.
Often it isn't the culture that is "different", its the character.

Any toxic behaviour from any group is anathema. - be very careful - it could be from the so called "us" in the "us and them".
And you dont need to go far into social media to find real, toxic, life threatening behaviour from "us".

Be open? take people as they come, not the label.

Hmmm very saintly. But you can’t tell what a person is like if you can’t see their face. Or can you? As you say warm, loving, angry etc but how could you possibly tell. You must enlighten us Wyllow.

I realise the last post was on the idealistic side deliberately to try and shake what I perceive to be a negative out look as regards how all our society functions.

Its a tiny, tiny minority wear a burka, and not necessarily the sort shown on the photos upthread, where the most covered faces were shown not burkas with openness around the eyes.

You cant work in key areas with a face covering anyway: use of burkas is declining: as pointed out by many, there are other forms of face covering worn from all cultures: this has all ben said, but a simple answer, is to meet people and talk, find what we have in common, not divides.

Obviously not burkas, but often I'm aware (studied Art/comparative. cultures/uni level...talked with Iran female friend - of the richness of other cultures, to enjoy, to learn.