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U turn on winter fuel payments- is it a good move?

(338 Posts)
vegansrock Mon 09-Jun-25 12:59:59

I’m not sure about this one. Is it sensible listening to critics on this or flip flopping?

PoliticsNerd Mon 09-Jun-25 15:00:21

I think both last year and this are right. The Conservatives set out to stop Labour from making the changes the had set out. Leaving so many promises unfunded was just anti-democratic. The money had to come from somewhere and the BabyBoomers have, overall, done very well over the years. I think helping fill that black hole was a good thing for Pensioners to do.

Now they are adjusting but taking away an unaffordable universality. That seems okay to me. Of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating so we will have to wait and see.

PoliticsNerd Mon 09-Jun-25 14:43:23

keepingquiet

Wonder how many people will post now they got what they wanted?

I will certainly be eligible if it's for those on less than £25 000 pa.

However, on the news now it's just more government baiting... seems they can't do right for doing wrong...

£35,000 keepingquiet. I am very pleased with this as that is the mean for working incomes I think (I haven’t double-checked). We need to look after those on middle incomes as they are the working drivers of growth and we need them to be able to look forward to a reasonable retirement.

What we don't seem to have been told is if there is an eligability level for savings. I hope they raise this from the £10,000 for Pension Credit. I've thought that was too low for some time particularly for home owners who have to pay for the upkeep of their houses.

nanaK54 Mon 09-Jun-25 14:39:21

Lots of 'frothing' going on over on 'Mumsnet' grin

growstuff Mon 09-Jun-25 14:31:14

Usedtobeblonde

I didn’t realise anyone paid tax on WFA.
Has it always been added to income before.
To Cuberbug, you should receive it as your income is way below the level quoted Tax on £12,600 should be very little.

They don't.

Allira Mon 09-Jun-25 14:29:41

Thanks Silverbrooks

Casdon Mon 09-Jun-25 14:28:56

Usedtobeblonde

I didn’t realise anyone paid tax on WFA.
Has it always been added to income before.
To Cuberbug, you should receive it as your income is way below the level quoted Tax on £12,600 should be very little.

It wasn’t taxed previously. If I understand it correctly, people with a total income over £35,000 will have the full WFA removed through tax from this winter. It’s a lot easier just to opt out if that is going to be an option, if your total income. Otherwise it will be clawed back at the end of the tax year no doubt, which is messy.

Allira Mon 09-Jun-25 14:27:25

Doodledog

I think it is a brave move, as it is inevitable that even those who moaned when the WFA was cut will now moan about its reinstatement.

I don't think that people (including politicians, but also parents, managers and so on) should dig their heels in 'because I've said so' rather than listen to those who disagree and adapt if they feel critics have a point.

I don't know what I think about the new move as we haven't had the detail yet. Is the £35k limit a personal one or a household one, for instance? How will it be reclaimed if a person/household has income above that? Will HMRC be able to link couples' incomes?

Is the £35k limit a personal one or a household one, for instance? How will it be reclaimed if a person/household has income above that? Will HMRC be able to link couples' incomes?

Interesting questions.
With the old WFA , the higher amount was age dependent, so DH got that and I received the lower amount.

Wyllow3 Mon 09-Jun-25 14:27:18

As ever, Silverbrooks, your go-to fact provision has whats needed!

Silverbrooks Mon 09-Jun-25 14:24:14

Withdrawal of the univeral winter fuel payment was an open goal that happened to present itself at the time.

Had Sunak called the election a little later, this couldn’t have happened in the way that it did. As it was, the new government had to rush through secondary legislation while Parliament was in recess to make it law. As it result there was no no impact assessment and no formal scrutiny by the Social Security Advisory Committee (SSAC).

As a social experiment to get more households to claim Pension Credit, it has largely failed. The number of households now in receipt of PC has increased by fewer than 50,000 compared to before the change. As 780,000 household were said be eligible and not claiming, that’s clear proof that the barriers to claiming remain. It’s often the most vulnerable who don’t claim.

If I were the Minister, that’s how I would justify the reversal. We tried to increase PC uptake. It didn't work very well. It’s better to reinstate the safety net.

This is essentially what happened in 1997/98 when the payment was first introduced by Gordon Brown.

There were two rates, £20 for all households but £50 for those in receipt of Income Support. It was hoped then that many more households would claim IS to get the extra £30. They didn’t, so the payment was first increased to £100 in 1999 for all households, then increased to £200 in 2000. The extra £100 when someone in the household is 80 was introduced in 2003.

See page 9:

researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06019/SN06019.pdf

The payment hasn’t kept up with inflation. Had it done so £200 would be nearer £400 now.

Savings have come from the women affected by SP equalisation who had to wait up to six more years to receive the payment.

In real terms, the cost of paying univerally has remaned static. See page 5 of the linked document.

Payment is per household. In a household receiving £200 where both are pension age so receiving a £100 each, only the person whose income is more than £35,000 will have the £100 clawed back through the tax system.

Martin Lewis explains:

www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2025/06/winter-fuel-payment-criteria-confirmed/

He explains how this differs from the clawback of Child Benefit was high earners - which suggests there night be some change to that.

There will be an option to opt out of receiving the payment.

As I’ve said repeatedly, and it's in the paper, it was never mandatory to spend the payment on fuel. In fact it’s far better in terms of Treasury yield if people spent it on something else. Spend it on fuel - tax yield 5%. Spend it on Christmas wine - tax yield over 50%. Most other things in between - tax yield 20%. Public spending creates taxation.

As most people on-grid spread their annual energy costs evenly over 12 months now, are effectively forced to through the direct debit system, in reality, most people are physically spending the payment on something to do with Christmas. Once it's in someone's bank account who can say what it's spent on anyway?

Georgesgran Mon 09-Jun-25 14:13:56

I think there’s going to be an opt out option for those with £35k or more per year, to save the tax-code changes (?) to claw back their WFA payment.

Usedtobeblonde Mon 09-Jun-25 14:06:22

You should be paying tax on £30 a year if that is your total income.
Personal allowance is £12,700, according to Google.

Wyllow3 Mon 09-Jun-25 14:05:07

Ok, 10 quid on that it "U turn" will appear in a headline tomorrow morning? Any takers?

Usedtobeblonde Mon 09-Jun-25 14:04:15

I didn’t realise anyone paid tax on WFA.
Has it always been added to income before.
To Cuberbug, you should receive it as your income is way below the level quoted Tax on £12,600 should be very little.

Wyllow3 Mon 09-Jun-25 14:03:44

I meant to highlight this as its so good

At the moment, only 10% of pensioners get WFA
After the changes, 75% will get WFA

As I said, confirmed by the Resolution Foundation.

Whitewavemark2 Mon 09-Jun-25 14:03:33

MayBee70

Braver to admit that you’ve made a mistake than to continue for fear of criticism imo.

Yes I agree

Wyllow3 Mon 09-Jun-25 14:01:32

Basics from the Head of the Resolution Foundation on the 1pm Beeb news

*At the moment, only 10% of pensioners get WFA.
After the changes, 75% will get WFA*

The means testing is going to be done via the tax system as mentioned already, so if you are on PAYG you dont need to apply, if you are on tax returns annually it will go by that.

True, CyberBug, but someone with more than you get still needing WFA will get the help they need now.

They have costed it but as I was listening not reading in the car I didn't get the estimated cost, nor the suggestions as to how it will be paid for. They have said no further borrowing. Myself, I hope in the autumn they look closely at tax allowances as closely related.

As for the U turn and people scornful (just waiting for it in the papers tomorrow, fgs just be grateful they DID listen

MayBee70 Mon 09-Jun-25 13:56:54

Braver to admit that you’ve made a mistake than to continue for fear of criticism imo.

Usedtobeblonde Mon 09-Jun-25 13:53:25

Just for clarity , does anyone know or has seen if the £3700, which is the figure I have read, is gross or net income.
I.e, before or after tax?

CyberBug123 Mon 09-Jun-25 13:52:29

Just thinking the £35,000 slighly deceptive as I 'earn' £12,600 a year and pay tax on that so can't see this being any benefit really

LizzieDrip Mon 09-Jun-25 13:49:17

I look forward to the media headlines thanking the Labour government … not holding my breath!

nanaK54 Mon 09-Jun-25 13:43:52

Super job!

No moaning from this OAP grin

David49 Mon 09-Jun-25 13:42:30

I already get taxed on WFA, now they will take it all back, my wife keeps hers. I’m wondering where the extra cash has come from.

growstuff Mon 09-Jun-25 13:35:14

Doodledog

This is from the press release:

"The payment will be recovered from individuals via HMRC based on their individual taxable incomes. There will be no need for household incomes to be aggregated."

kittylester Mon 09-Jun-25 13:34:31

The threshold is £35,000..

Doodledog Mon 09-Jun-25 13:33:25

Thanks for replying, Calendargirl.

I see what you mean, and very much believe that this government are dreadful at PR. They should have done far more research before the announcement.

Part of the problem though, is that as we've seen on GN, people who complained that the WFA went to those who 'didn't need it' changed their minds entirely when it was withdrawn, so research in this case would have been difficult to get right.

All the same, governments are there to represent the people, and if something is as unpopular as this seems to have been I think it shows flexibility and humility to change their mind.