Madeleine McCann

Both my girls were February babies...as am I... and were out in cold dry weather. With a small hot water bottle in the pram in winter and a square sunshade over the pram in the summer. But always in then sight line of the kitchen window. Often heard of the probably anecdotal advice to push the pram to the bottom of the garden and let them cry. This was 48 years ago.

I agree HelterSkelter, my first child was a summer baby and my health visitor advised me to put his pram out in the garden for fresh air, which I did, even then in an enclosed back garden, I still felt it necessary to keep checking on him quite frequently.

I was amazed by the Danish baby left to sleep in what looked like public gardens. On a balcony, back yard/garden fine. As I left my 2 to sleep in all weathers (dry of course) outside in our back garden. But this seemed to be taking trust to a different level and not allowing for the unexpected. Even as basic as another small child out there playing on its own and tipping the pram over while having a look inside...never mind all the other risks.

Small children sleeping inside while you are sitting outside in your garden on a summer eveing no problem. Two very small children and one still young but older sleeping inside while you are out of sight, apparently, at an outdoor hotel bar/restaurant was a bad decision for which they paid a terrible price.

A little bit of an aside from the Madeleine disappearance, some on here will have watched Simon Reeves programmes on Scandinavia. In the Denmark one, he spoke to one mother who said it was not unusual to leave a baby in a pram outside, her own baby was outside in the grounds of what appeared to be a block of flats, she said something on the lines "there is a trust in Denmark" even so that cannot encompass trusting everyone imo it doesn't take into account the fact there will be a minority paedophiles in every society. Similarly in other European countries, The Netherlands and Germany I have read that it is not unusual for children aged about 5 or so to go to and from school on their own and they don't have that thing that many of us have experienced here when collecting our very young children from school (Infants) there is a teacher in the playground who will only release the child to parent/guardian/known carer, or that's how I remember it from picking up both children and grandchildren. On the contrary from what I've read, the very young child will come out of pre school, I know they start school later in mainland Europe and make their own way home. We here in Britain have been accused of helicopter parenting, guilty as charged! When mine were much younger, but I would say as in Europe there was a far more relaxed style of parenting when our generation grew up, a sort of benign neglect existed, in fact I can remember my own parents going to Midnight Mass and if they couldn't drag us out of bed, they'd leave us for an hour or so at home unattended. I don't think they thought anything of it, would that be worse than the McCann's I wonder I hate to malign them because I think they've paid a helluva price for what could be deemed as their benign neglect, but again I can remember being in hotels, particularly with my eldest child who as a baby went off like a light into a deep sleep, and then we'd put the baby monitor system that the hotel operated and go down to their dining room, maybe that's still a thing. In hindsight since Madeleine's disappearance I'm not sure I'd do it now.

My son whilst playing around a swimming pool abroad with a child he'd befriended, aged about 7 or 8 disappeared for what seemed like an eternity (a couple of hours) I remember almost reaching the stage of complete meltdown, we were just a couple of sun loungers apart from where they were playing and then whilst we must have taken our eyes off them, they were gone. I alerted hotel staff, who searched and put announcements out on the tannoy. Eventually after what seemed an incredible time lapse, someone from the hotel, it was quite large, did a door to door knock and there they were in the other child's room playing with his stash of some desirable toy or other he'd brought along. Of course after that I impressed upon my son "never go off without letting me know where you are"

ViceVersa

Well said! Pointing out inconsistencies certainly doesn't mean anyone is spouting 'conspiracy theories'.

I see no conspiracy theories or myths either on this thread. I think once these start popping up we will be in danger of the thread being closed by GNHQ.

Daddima

SporeRB

What I found strange is when Kate McCann found her daughter missing, she screamed ‘They’ve taken her’.

If I go to a hotel room and find my daughter missing, I will scream ‘Oh my God, she has wandered off somewhere’.

The fact she said that put the idea of abduction right at the very beginning of the investigation.

If the dogs could smell the odour of blood and body in their apartment and their hired car, it could well have been an accident in the apartment that night.

Another thing I found strange is the funding McCann received from the British police amounting to £13.2 million which is a colossal amount of money.

Where did you get the idea that the McCanns received ANY money from the British police?

There is also much weight put upon Kate ‘screaming ‘ They’ve taken her’’ Who reported that, and is it accurate? So many times it is repeated that in their engagement interview Prince Charles said ‘ Whatever love is’, even when the interview has been shown hundreds of times, and his exact words were, ‘ Whatever ‘in love’ means’ Just illustrates that recollections may indeed vary, so why not in Kate McCann’s?

Again, if you'd watched the documentaries or the News at the time you would have seen her recount what she said happened when she went to check on the children. She makes a big point about the curtains going 'whooosh' and the shutters being jemmied open, when in fact they were closed and the curtains couldn't have been blown about. She then says that she went back to the bar saying 'They've taken her'.

That is not coming from an armchair detective, or an internet psychologist - it was said to camera by KM herself. I think it may also be in her book, but I haven't read that.

Well said! Pointing out inconsistencies certainly doesn't mean anyone is spouting 'conspiracy theories'.

Can someone please point to a single 'conspiracy theory' on this thread?

There have been a few posts accusing posters of buying into conspiracy theories, but I don't think there are any. People (including me) have said that the statements don't add up, that the window was not open as KM said it was, that the dogs alerted to blood and cadaverine, but none of that is indicative of a conspiracy.

If MM was taken by an abductor, then she paid a terrible price for her parents' negligence, and I have no doubt that they will be feeling terrible - it's not something I would wish on anyone.

If, on the other hand, she woke up and had an accident in the apartment and this was covered up by her parents and their friends (ie the theory of the policeman who was removed from the case) that's very different.

We don't know which of those things is true, or if something different again happened, as there has (so far) been no body found, but I don't see why one version (the abduction one) is the only explanation that is allowed to be expressed without accusations of speculation and implications of prurience and of believing in conspiracies.

It is all speculation, including the abduction theory, and will remain so until either a body is found or someone confesses.

No-one thinks it was ok, but I wonder how many people have done similar? In this case a combination of circumstances resulted in tragic consequences.

Galaxy

It's not about blame, it is about child safeguarding, pretending that it was OK is not a good idea.

I agree. It’s obvious the parents continue to pay a terrible price.
Would anyone defend what this group of adults thought was ok, had they not been middle class professionals

The roof of the apartment was visible from the tapas bar, but not the door itself which was closed but not locked.

This is obviously only information I have read online regarding the case.

I doubt anyone thinks that what they did was okay but by god they’ve paid the price.

It's not about blame, it is about child safeguarding, pretending that it was OK is not a good idea.

I don’t blame the parents for the action of a paedophile, if that’s what happened. That this man watched the children regularly put to bed and left with various adults checking them over the course of an evening.
I can’t avoid saying I’d never do that, nor would my friends or family.

Allsorts

Have none of you had children that you put to bed and family and friends are there, with patio doors open you sit just outside on the patio, that is the distance I believe those parents were from their children, in sight. They made a mistake, they were good loving parents, how that guilt must have racked them, they were both doctors and helped people.. A paedophile targeted them, a random premeditated crime. I feel nothing but compassion, has no one never made a mistake?Holding your child's hand in a crowd and they wriggle free, Lost sight of one for an instant. I didn't leave mine, we were lucky if we got a week in a caravan in Wales, whilst there numerous families put their children to bed and sat outside chatting, not us we were as tired as the children after a day out.
They were probably the same distance away as the McCanns.

Well said.

I find it extraordinary that some people blame the parents. Life is full of what-ifs. I have nothing but the greatest sympathy for the McCanns.

I read the book too. I know the McCanns were probably told by the police to not show emotion, but nevertheless they do come across as incredibly cold. And they make my blood boil when they make comments like, "it was just like having a drink in the garden on a summer night" or "we have all left our children at some point" I am far from a perfect parent but what they did was child neglect of the worst kind and I will not allow them to speak about 99% of parents in the same way.

Some hint at a discrepancy between the resources devoted to this case, and others, but that isn’t a justifiable criticism of the McCanns. A similar depth of investigation should be afforded to all families finding themselves in such tragic circumstances.

I agree that some families/individuals are more able to mobilise action on their behalf than others, and can sometimes influence outcomes, but it doesn’t make sense to point the finger of blame when a family does manage to enlist that continuing level of attention.

The McCann parents, their families, friends and their other children have suffered immeasurably. I would never have left mine in those circumstances. My main fear would have been a child waking, being scared and alone, maybe trying to find me. We were fortunate notspaghetti, in Greece they loved and welcomed our youngsters/infants, never any criticism.
I feel Mr and Mrs McCann will have suffered in ways we can’t begin to comprehend.
It seems possible the key suspect may have been involved so that helps me understand the continuing investigations. We all want to see this kind of offender face justice. It’s hard not to feel sympathy for all the other patents whose children disappeared and for whom less attention has been given

We have no way of knowing exactly what lines of investigation have been followed over the years, here and abroad. There may have been many, and some may have entailed looking closely at the McCanns, and their time in Praia da Luz and in the years since.

I don’t think what any of us think or believe happened has any relevance really. Or any judgments on whether they should have left them or not. Everyone will have different views but what matters is evidence.

The prime fact is that Madeline disappeared and that all the subsequent investigations have failed to find her or what happened to her.

Given that investigators have manly followed one line unproductively I think it’s reasonable to suggest that any future investigation should take a fresh look at all the evidence and anomalies. One that looks into alternative scenarios as well as that of possible abduction.

I absolutely believe that the parents’ version of events is perfectly plausible, and believe that their grief at the loss of their daughter was unmistakably genuine.

Work forward from the group of friends happily drinking and taking turns to check on the children, not ideal, but not particularly blameworthy in the circumstances at that time. I can imagine an opportunist with sinister intentions taking in the scene, and taking his chance, even able to pinpoint where the children were sleeping.

Criticism of the parents and the continuing search is beyond my comprehension.

I think the parents have been through more than enough, and I think their pain will never end.

If he did it; and I think he did, he won’t ever admit it.

I think if you look at the aerial photos of the site Notspaghetti you will see that the tapas bar was on the other side of the large pool area. To access the apartments the parents would either have to cross the gated pool area or take a diversion down a footpath to the side (which is what they did)

I don’t know about the distance, whether 150 metres is correct, but it’s very clear that they couldn’t have watched their villas from the tapas bar and nor could they have intervened quickly if they had seen something worrying.

I don’t think it’s in any way comparable to being at the end of the garden.

Iam64
The children came out in the evening with us - ours too
..but then we were challenged for letting them sleep on our laps etc and not taking them "home" to a proper bed!

I have just looked up the distance from the apartment to the tapas bar - it is 50metres apparently.
It seems to me to be in the same small complex.

There are lots of images online.
The apartment looks to be in easy view of the tapas bar.

My house is a terrace and the end of the garden is that far away.
I can't say I would want to go down there for dinner - but I daresay I might have done if I'd had a baby listener device on and my children were asleep as you feel pretty safe in your own garden.

Our previous home was a big old farmhouse in a village. We never locked the door even at night there.
My babies always slept with us - but the older children (3 plus?) might have been taken by someone sneaking in.

I would never have forgiven myself if not locking the door meant my child had been stolen from us - whether of not they had come to harm.