Keir Starmer announces statutory inquiry into so called grooming gangs/organised child sexual abuse and exploitation

growstuff

Sarnia

growstuff

Sarnia Correction:

"Too many cultures, including northern European, produce some coercive and controlling men who regard some women as second class citizens. only any good for shopping, cooking, cleaning and producing children. They are sometimes not seen as equal or of any value when compared to men."

Think you will find the low lives in these grooming gangs are mostly Pakistani, which last time I looked wasn't anywhere near northern Europe.

I think if you look, you'll find that there are most certainly sex abusing men of northern European origin. For example, Andrew Tate was born in America, but raised in the UK. Jimmy Saville was born and raised in the UK. 21 people convicted in Walsall weren't of Pakistani origin:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/05/twenty-one-convicted-in-west-midlands-child-sexual-abuse-inquiry

I am not denying that the men in these sex gangs are of Pakistani origin, but what you have done (and so many others do) is label all Pakistani men as sex abusers and rapists. They are not!

This thread is about the inquiry into the grooming gangs scandal, the majority of who were Pakistani.
You have gone off on a tangent with Andrew Tate and Jimmy Savile ( one 'l' ).
I have not labelled all Pakistani men as being groomers but said that the majority are of Pakistani origin, which they are.

I think it was also in some cases, although not all, about the 'class' of the girls involved.

TerriBull I think we're saying the same things.

TerriBull I accept what you're saying, especially in your last paragraph.

My concern is the negative stereotyping. I really do have the impression that the police just turned a blind eye to what was going on because some of them thought that's what Pakistani men and working class girls get up to - just leave them to it.

I'm also concerned that so many people can't differentiate between Muslim communities. There's a huge difference between, for example, Afghanistan and Egypt. There are also huge differences within the communities.

I'm not going to play "Sex Abuse Top Trumps", but my impression is that misogyny is also more prevalent within certain communities in "white" UK. I agree with you that it comes down to empowering girls and women. Nobody can force anybody to take advantage of education on offer, so some intensive work is needed within communities to overcome barriers. I'm not in a position to dictate because I don't have experience of living in a Pakistani community and don't understand all the implications and I don't think many people on GN are in that position either.

Notwithstanding all that, there is no doubt in my mind that some police and other authorities failed. I hope it's all more out in the open now and there can be productive measures put in place - no more kicking Jay's and Casey's recommendations into the long grass - and no more pathetic excuses about not acting because people will be called racist.

"Pakistan does not deny girls an education" that may well be the case, but in certain parts, it's made difficult yes I was going to highlight the case of Malala shot as a 15 year old by the Taliban for opposing their restrictions on female education in her home country of Pakistan but you've already done it.

I wouldn't disagree that any culture can produce coercive and controlling men, possibly in a different guise, but just as pernicious, the Tate Brothers have elevated all that to a whole new level.

I agree there was a reverse racism going on in the whole of the grooming scandal, reverse because there are those who would say white people cannot experience racism, to be born white is to be born privileged allegedly. Twenty or so years ago, when Ann Cryer first drew attention to what was going on in her constituency and vilified as a racist for being an honest MP who went into politics for the all the right reasons, the victims were deemed "white trash" they had all the ingrained stereotypes thrown at them from both the groomers and the police.

Because it's all been kicked down the road for so long now, it is going to be a difficult subject to negotiate. On the one hand, a lack of social cohesion is going to become evident within certain communities but as many have pointed out we have to rise above homogenising and by extension demonising the entire British, Pakistani community, at the same time it should not be denied that Pakistani grooming gangs have been responsible for some of the most reprehensible criminal acts against children. Whilst also emphasising that most child sexual abuse is carried out by white people, well quite possibly, the white population in England is something in the order of 86% so to be expected really, there will be deviants in any society and its nothing new. It has been pointed out, on this thread, education, or lack of it, is almost certainly an issue, not every Pakistani British National will live in enclaves, that cut them off and bear little relation to British life. Many are high achievers and well represented in professions such as Medicine and the Law. Just an observation, but the top grammar school in the town where I used to live it was clear to see that there was a high propensity of Asian pupils, a mixture of both Indian and Pakistani filing in and out of there every day, my husband said his old grammar school in Essex now has the same ethnic mix of pupils. The reason is evident that vast swathes of people from the Indian sub continent take education very seriously, and they work hard, possibly more so than their British counterparts, maybe I shouldn't say that though because it could be deemed as stereotyping, I'm just trying to illustrate a counter argument of the positives that immigrant communities can bring with them in their work ethic.

It will be a fine balance but there needs to be objectivity and an acknowledgement that some communities whatever their ethnicity have harboured ills and deviants. Lets not talk about it because it's a bit sad and not very nice just won't cut it any more.

One of the worst sexual abuse gangs convicted recently was this one, with women complicit and very young children involved. This is a societal problem.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2dxj570n21o

Men who are sexually aroused by children are likely to abuse within their families, friends and anywhere they have access to children. I’m not aware whether police/social workers investigating so called grooming gangs are investigating their families as well. That would certainly happen in similar network type abuse investigation

Sarnia

growstuff

Sarnia Correction:

"Too many cultures, including northern European, produce some coercive and controlling men who regard some women as second class citizens. only any good for shopping, cooking, cleaning and producing children. They are sometimes not seen as equal or of any value when compared to men."

Think you will find the low lives in these grooming gangs are mostly Pakistani, which last time I looked wasn't anywhere near northern Europe.

I think if you look, you'll find that there are most certainly sex abusing men of northern European origin. For example, Andrew Tate was born in America, but raised in the UK. Jimmy Saville was born and raised in the UK. 21 people convicted in Walsall weren't of Pakistani origin:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/05/twenty-one-convicted-in-west-midlands-child-sexual-abuse-inquiry

I am not denying that the men in these sex gangs are of Pakistani origin, but what you have done (and so many others do) is label all Pakistani men as sex abusers and rapists. They are not!

growstuff

Sarnia Correction:

"Too many cultures, including northern European, produce some coercive and controlling men who regard some women as second class citizens. only any good for shopping, cooking, cleaning and producing children. They are sometimes not seen as equal or of any value when compared to men."

Think you will find the low lives in these grooming gangs are mostly Pakistani, which last time I looked wasn't anywhere near northern Europe.

TerriBull Pakistan does not deny girls an education. Nevertheless, a significant number of girls in Pakistan drop out of secondary education because their families can't afford things like transport and books. Pakistan spends very little on education, so families have to subsidise it, which poorer families just can't afford to do. Culturally, the men are seen as the breadwinners, so families prioritise boys' education. There are areas such as the Swat Valley, where the Taliban operates and girls are intimidated (ask Malala Yousafzai). The Pakistani government is weak and can't control its extremists. However, that doesn't mean that all girls are uneducated or that all men are controlling patriarchs.

In any case, that doesn't excuse the sex gangs in the UK. Most men of Pakistani origin don't treat women as sex slaves. Pakistan is not Afghanistan. There are two strands to what has happened in the UK. It seems reports of sex gangs were ignored because the police (and others) accepted that's what Pakistani men do, which is racist, and they ignored the victims themselves, claiming they they were "asking for it", which is classic misogyny. There has been a failure by British authorities to act and I hope we won't see any more back-covering and excuses, but a real change in attitude.

We had this form of patriarchal rule in many societies in the west, particularly where religion had a massive overreach. Gradually that's diminished through a number of factors, not least the empowerment of women and theocratic hierarchies blotting their own copy books with their abuse and double standards. Male dominated regimes are not successful societies, neither are they equal to their more egalitarian counterparts, especially the worst ones, that deny girls an education and in doing so preclude 50% of potential contributions to building a country going forwards not backwards. The Danish ideal, whilst draconian in some respects should be considered, at its core is the desire to give the females of those immigrant communities parity with their female Danish counterparts otherwise they will remain disenfranchised, we have let that happen here to a certain extent.

Sarnia Correction:

"Too many cultures, including northern European, produce some coercive and controlling men who regard some women as second class citizens. only any good for shopping, cooking, cleaning and producing children. They are sometimes not seen as equal or of any value when compared to men."

Galaxy I agree so much that turning a blind eye is a form of racism. I think that not doing anything because of accusations of racism are racist in themselves. People are accepting that certain behaviours are "normal" within certain communities, which just isn't true.

Parsley3

^The trouble is that for as long as there are people who moan when nothing is done, then moan when something is done and moan about how something should have been done before something was done, it is bound to act as a deterrent to anything actually getting done.^
Well put, Doodledog.
Also the dismissive too little,too late comment that is used genetically to undermine any action.
As for this inquiry, yes it will take time before a report is available but it needs to be done. Everyone involved needs to be held to account .

I completely agree with you both.

Galaxy

I am aware of the death threats and of course the accusations that she was racist.
The word racism has lots of power, although less than it used to. I do wonder about those who turned a blind eye, because of course that is a form of racism too. If you have men raping children, the likelyhood that their wives and children are living in some form of hell is quite high.

Too many cultures, including Pakistani, produce coercive and controlling men who regard women as second class citizens. only any good for shopping, cooking, cleaning and producing children. They are not seen as equal or of any value when compared to men.
That is why there is so much concern with the high percentage of single males arriving in the UK.
Deportation should have been the punishment but of course we are too dim-witted and too slow to prevent the Rochdale groomers from renouncing their Pakistani citizenship before deportation was put in place.

Of course not all Muslim men are rapist obviously but not all people who call out the behaviour of the Asian grooming gangs are racist either. I can read between the lines growstuff and I can tell what you and other posters think about me and you know what" I don't care". I care about the cover up that's gone on since 2002 I care about the young girls not being listened to. I have worked with both Pakistani women and men. The women absolutely lovely and hard working I even went to Pakistani wedding which was great all the ladies there really welcoming. In conversations with them they told me how Pakistani men view white girls, I won't relay it here because it's not very nice. After the wedding she have to move town to live with her in-laws and we didn't hear much from her then. The Pakistani men who I had to manage certainly didn't like being told what to do by a women. I suppose that's a cultural thing but I don't know for sure.

I am aware of the death threats and of course the accusations that she was racist.
The word racism has lots of power, although less than it used to. I do wonder about those who turned a blind eye, because of course that is a form of racism too. If you have men raping children, the likelyhood that their wives and children are living in some form of hell is quite high.

Doodledog What you have written might very well be true for a small minority of men from a Pakistani heritage. To be honest, you'd have to talk to people who know some of them much better than I do. It's all to easy to stereotype them. One thing is for sure is that all Pakistani men, never mind all Asian men, don't constitute one homogenous group. Just as in the UK, there all sorts of different social groups.

As a bit of an aside, when Zia Yusuf was in the news a couple of weeks ago, there were loads of racially abusive posts on X. Some of them called him a Paki, made slurs about his relationships with young girls, implicated him in groomings, etc. All that was nonsense, of course. Yusuf was born in the UK and his parents came from Sri Lanka - he's probably never been to Pakistan. However, he has brown skin and his first name is Muhammad, so the racist eejits picked on him. I'm afraid that's what happens.

We need to get beyond that. Of course, the men involved in the grooming/rape gangs need to be prosecuted (as do all men who abuse women, whatever their ethnicity). It will have the racists rubbing their hands in glee and we need to tell them to take a running jump. I'm afraid they don't seem very intelligent, so reasoned argument won't do much good. I'm glad Labour has finally come out and it looks as though there will be some action.

Galaxy

And she paid for it.

I know she did - she was a brave lady. Do you know who was behind the death threats?

This is an article about her:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/30/rotherham-girls-could-have-been-spared-ann-cryer

She tried to do something in 2002, long before Tommy Robinson got interested.

I understood it, not that that means much!
I am at the stage where I don't care if people call me a bigot, it is meaningless to me now, which is of course dangerous in itself.

Galaxy

And we help to avoid that by being open about the subject, because the reluctance to talk about the issues has made any scapegoating even more likely.

That is true. But it is also true that the knowledge that there are those who will jump on any opportunity to scapegoat has made this whole thing more difficult than it should have been.

In a society in which there were not people who were salivating over the chance to blame particular groups, and to make political capital from it all, it would be soooo much easier to have adult conversations about what is happening.

As it is, the knowledge that there are those who just love that opportunity just complicates things.

FWIW (and I do not pretend to be an expert on anything to do with this, but am trying to be 'open about the subject' rather than expecting others to be so and allowing them instead of me to be jumped on) my guess is that where you have a subculture that is uneducated, brought up to believe that women are inferior, knowing that the chances of getting a decent job with any sort of prospects, so you will struggle to compete with other males for wither jobs or women you will get resentment. That applies to both immigrants and white working class men.

If you then separate the sexes (as happens in some sections of the Asian community) the men are unable to find any sort of sexual outlet as they are unmarriageable and sex outside of marriage is dishonourable. Frustration is inevitable, and the women who might have felt the same and been willing partners (as, for instance, happened in 50s Britain) are kept indoors and under wraps. It's a ticking bomb.

The men found guilty (not the same as the men involved in) the grooming gangs are from that demographic. They are from particular areas of Pakistan, with no qualifications, no 'standing' in the community and nothing to offer, which means that they have no future to look forward to.

Does this mean that all Asian men are rapists? Of course not. Does it mean that Islam is responsible for rape of young girls? Of course not.

Does it mean that we (as a society) should try to stop sexism and separatism, and ensure that there is free and easily available education of all immigrants so that they are not segregated into ghettos? Probably.

Should we insist that all immigrants agree to abide by the broad and widespread ways that UK citizens accept as 'normal'? Maybe. I don't know. I think it's much more complicated than it sometimes seems, and it might be ok to have restrictions on behaviour for members of some religions if they want to adhere to them, but I think we need to make our laws very clear, and make it clear that they apply to everyone.

So, maybe it's ok to ask your children to refrain from sex before marriage, but it is not ok to assume that this allows you (or them) to find ways around that by 'relieving yourself' by having sex with vulnerable children, or to excuse it by assuming that those children are somehow 'available'.

I hope that makes sense and that anyone who knows me on here understands that it is not in any way about prejudice based on race or religion?

And she paid for it.

yanda

Andrew Norfolk...I've just looked at the link and it says Rotherham grooming gangs...educate me then does he expose any more grooming gangs in other towns ?

Look up his Wiki profile for yourself. Incidentally, the Labour MP Ann Cryer had raised concerns.

Galaxy

And we help to avoid that by being open about the subject, because the reluctance to talk about the issues has made any scapegoating even more likely.

I agree Galaxy, but what we also have to do is jump on the people who will use it as an opportunity to have a racist/anti-Islam/anti-immigration rant.

Andrew Norfolk...I've just looked at the link and it says Rotherham grooming gangs...educate me then does he expose any more grooming gangs in other towns ?