Keir Starmer announces statutory inquiry into so called grooming gangs/organised child sexual abuse and exploitation

No Sarnia I haven't gone off at a tangent. Maybe you should look at how Venn diagrams work.

Nobody has denied that men of Pakistani origin are over-represented amongst the grooming gangs. However, you then went on about cultures producing controlling men who subjugate women, as if all men in those cultures treat women badly - even correlating subjugation of women with sexual abuse. It's only a very small step to labelling all men in Muslim societies as evil abusers.

You have only considered one aspect of sexual exploitation. You have ignored, for example, our own culture which also produces controlling and abusive misogynists.

There have been other grooming gangs involving young children (two - the one in Walsall and another in Glasgow) have been mentioned on this thread. The perpetuators in those gangs were all white British.

Is there any reason why any inquiry should ignore them and focus only on the gangs of men of Pakistani origin? IMO they all need locking up for a very long time.

Galaxy

I think it was also in some cases, although not all, about the 'class' of the girls involved.

I think you're right. The girls (and in one case a young boy) weren't taken seriously. I hope any inquiry looks closely at why they weren't believed. Was it because they were the "wrong class"? In the end, their sufferings should be the focus.

growstuff

No Sarnia I haven't gone off at a tangent. Maybe you should look at how Venn diagrams work.

Nobody has denied that men of Pakistani origin are over-represented amongst the grooming gangs. However, you then went on about cultures producing controlling men who subjugate women, as if all men in those cultures treat women badly - even correlating subjugation of women with sexual abuse. It's only a very small step to labelling all men in Muslim societies as evil abusers.

You have only considered one aspect of sexual exploitation. You have ignored, for example, our own culture which also produces controlling and abusive misogynists.

There have been other grooming gangs involving young children (two - the one in Walsall and another in Glasgow) have been mentioned on this thread. The perpetuators in those gangs were all white British.

Is there any reason why any inquiry should ignore them and focus only on the gangs of men of Pakistani origin? IMO they all need locking up for a very long time.

That’s what I tried to say earlier in the thread growstuff , so I endorse what you’re saying. Nobody is denying what was found in the fact finding report about Asian gangs being a specific group for the Inquiry. However there are other gangs involving British men being convicted, another one very recently this year, in Bolton.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0e43nxpepno
There is little difference in the crimes.

The point of this inquiry is to expose the cover-ups in the care and social services, police and local council services, and hold people publicly to account for failing to intervene to protect these out-of-control but extremely vulnerable under-age girls.

eazybee

The point of this inquiry is to expose the cover-ups in the care and social services, police and local council services, and hold people publicly to account for failing to intervene to protect these out-of-control but extremely vulnerable under-age girls.

👏👏👏

eazybee

The point of this inquiry is to expose the cover-ups in the care and social services, police and local council services, and hold people publicly to account for failing to intervene to protect these out-of-control but extremely vulnerable under-age girls.

And let's hope it does. If it shows that ethnicity played a role in the cover-ups, that needs outing and steps must be taken to stop it happening. In any professional inquiry there also need to be control groups. The way white grooming gangs have been treated also needs to be investigated. Otherwise, nobody will know whether the police (and others) have been turning a blind eye to all grooming gangs.

I’d hope that everybody contributing to this thread has read what the inquiry will cover eazybee, as laid out by the PM, but maybe they haven’t.

Casdon

I’d hope that everybody contributing to this thread has read what the inquiry will cover eazybee, as laid out by the PM, but maybe they haven’t.

I was wondering about that. I've read Yvette Cooper's statement and the inquiry is abut much more than pointing the finger of blame at those responsible in the past.

A video from a wonderful very brave man. Andrew Norfolk.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=itG3Vob59cE

They know what has happened, they seem to know who was responsible. Why don’t they do something instead of endlessly talking and considering what occurred? An enquiry could go on for years and meanwhile, nothing changes.

nanna8

They know what has happened, they seem to know who was responsible. Why don’t they do something instead of endlessly talking and considering what occurred? An enquiry could go on for years and meanwhile, nothing changes.

Have you actually listened to what Yvette Cooper and Louise Casey have said?

nanna8

They know what has happened, they seem to know who was responsible. Why don’t they do something instead of endlessly talking and considering what occurred? An enquiry could go on for years and meanwhile, nothing changes.

What simple solution to this complex problem do you suggest

Not being a politician or paid for my solutions I leave it up to them. It would involve arrests and Police presence, not talk. But it seems people would rather just talk about it.

Last year seven defendants were sentenced to a combined total of 106 years' imprisonment after being found guilty following a trial in Sheffield Crown Court of child sex abuse offences committed in Rotherham between April 2003 and April 2008.
Those are the ones who "did it" in Rotherham and they have been convicted and sentenced.

The action currently under consideration goes more deeply into the ethnic and social backgrounds of ALL grooming offences (not just ones where the offenders are of a specific race or culture) and "will be statutory under the Inquiries Act".
This means the inquiry will be able to compel witnesses to provide evidence. From www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c7872pngj2qo
A senior government source said the inquiry would "co-ordinate a series of targeted local investigations".
This will include new local investigations, which will take place even if local authorities don't want one.
The local investigations will have the power to compel evidence to be given and witnesses to appear.

Excerpts from an article in today's ST by Matthew Syed

"You see to understand many of the most urgent failures of integration, you need to understand the clan. These groups are held together not just by ideology or religion; they are cemented by cousin marriage, a common practice in Arabic cultures and, in the UK, many Pakistani immigrant communities, particularly those hailing from Kashmir. By marrying within small, tight knit groups they ensure everything is kept with the "baradari" or brotherhood - property, secrets, loyalty - binding clan members closer together while sequestering them from wider society. In her 2016 report Casey rightly talked about failure to speak English, honour beatings and the like, but she missed the point that many of these problems are a function of marriage practices that isolate communities. The academic Patrick Nash of the Pharos Foundation has written of the baradari life concentrated in small geographical areas spread across a few streets or nearby neighbourhoods where there is little need or opportunity to have much to do with wider society or practice the English Language. To write a report on failures of integration without seeing the link with cousin marriage is, I suggest, like writing on the power grid without noting the significance of electricity. Casey's report on the rape gang scandal was flawed for the same reason. It was a strange experience to read her words as she edged ever closer to grasping the point without quite getting there. She noted the problem is disproportionately concentrated among British Pakistanis. She noted that "two thirds of suspects offended within groups" that were based on pre-existing relationships - mainly brothers and cousins". But then stunningly, she suggested that these links were "unsophisticated" and "informal" Anyone who studies these things could have told that this is the unmistakable pattern of clan based crime: groups whose links are anything but informal and unsophisticated. Charlie Peters who has investigated this problem for GB News told me: "The deeper you probe, the more you see the presence of clans" We know that such communities are more likely to to see others as outsiders, of less moral value and when it comes to the young white girls, fair game (In fact Monica made that point very well on the other thread) to continue "The perpetrators also knew that they could commit crimes without getting dobbed in since loyalty is owed to the clan but not victims. In some cases abusers were aided by relatives in authority. A couple of examples, Last year, Saha Amran Miah 48, Saha Alman Miah 47 and Shaha Joman Miah 38 were convicted at Preston Crown Court of horrific abuse perpetrated in Barrow-in-Furness and Leeds. Yes,these were Pakistani men, but they were also brothers within an overreaching baradari. In Rotherham in 2016 Arshid Basharat and Bannaras Hussain groomed and raped children for nearly 20 years while Qurban Ali was found guilty of conspiracy to rape. Three of these men are brothers and Ali is their uncle. I have long advocated a ban on cousin marriage, but should perhaps say that I've never regarded it as a panacea. Improving integration requires so much more: ending mass uncontrolled immigration, amending legal frameworks to stop boats, deporting foreign criminals, not to mention other policies supported by large majorities but serially ducked by politicians. A ban on consanguinity would, though be of huge value. American states with bans tend to be more prosperous and faster growing. Nations with bans are richer and more integrated, with less corruption and lower rates of crime. A ban would also reduce the prevalence of the congenital diseases causing untold suffering in Kashmiri immigrant communities from Bradford to Luton. He goes on to say that the reason for the grooming scandal was not confronted for so long by both main parties the fear of seeming bigoted for investigating ethnic minorities even while they were gang raping young girls. Matthew Syed is himself the son of a Pakistani immigrant.

Baroness Casey's report, commissioned at the beginning of 2025 and published on 16th June, is at assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/685559d05225e4ed0bf3ce54/National_Audit_on_Group-based_Child_Sexual_Exploitation_and_Abuse.pdf
You don't need to read all 197 pages, there is a list of the different chapters at the start, with click-links to them. Or you can read the BBC's "Key Takeaways from Grooming Gangs Report" at www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2r2ejlvm1o Both of these are readable by the average non-expert non-politician, but the BBC one is shorter.

nanna8

They know what has happened, they seem to know who was responsible. Why don’t they do something instead of endlessly talking and considering what occurred? An enquiry could go on for years and meanwhile, nothing changes.

Five days ago, in Child Protection News - "The Government has accepted all 12 of the recommendations in Baroness Louise Casey's national audit on group-based child sexual exploitation, including her calls for a national inquiry, unique reference numbers for children and an immediate end to 'out of area taxis'.

Details of what the recommendations are and how the Govt will implement them are in the Child Protection News article (and in plenty of other articles.)

We have had the enquiries. This is the planned action to make the changes. Do keep up with the news, before you criticise.

Maybe nanna would like us to follow Trumps policy of just throwing people in prison without following the correct legal proceedings?

TerriBull

We had this form of patriarchal rule in many societies in the west, particularly where religion had a massive overreach. Gradually that's diminished through a number of factors, not least the empowerment of women and theocratic hierarchies blotting their own copy books with their abuse and double standards. Male dominated regimes are not successful societies, neither are they equal to their more egalitarian counterparts, especially the worst ones, that deny girls an education and in doing so preclude 50% of potential contributions to building a country going forwards not backwards. The Danish ideal, whilst draconian in some respects should be considered, at its core is the desire to give the females of those immigrant communities parity with their female Danish counterparts otherwise they will remain disenfranchised, we have let that happen here to a certain extent.

I agree.

A good report on the state of clan culture by Matthew Syed.It needs to be now acted on.

TerriBull

Excerpts from an article in today's ST by Matthew Syed

"You see to understand many of the most urgent failures of integration, you need to understand the clan. These groups are held together not just by ideology or religion; they are cemented by cousin marriage, a common practice in Arabic cultures and, in the UK, many Pakistani immigrant communities, particularly those hailing from Kashmir. By marrying within small, tight knit groups they ensure everything is kept with the "baradari" or brotherhood - property, secrets, loyalty - binding clan members closer together while sequestering them from wider society. In her 2016 report Casey rightly talked about failure to speak English, honour beatings and the like, but she missed the point that many of these problems are a function of marriage practices that isolate communities. The academic Patrick Nash of the Pharos Foundation has written of the baradari life concentrated in small geographical areas spread across a few streets or nearby neighbourhoods where there is little need or opportunity to have much to do with wider society or practice the English Language. To write a report on failures of integration without seeing the link with cousin marriage is, I suggest, like writing on the power grid without noting the significance of electricity. Casey's report on the rape gang scandal was flawed for the same reason. It was a strange experience to read her words as she edged ever closer to grasping the point without quite getting there. She noted the problem is disproportionately concentrated among British Pakistanis. She noted that "two thirds of suspects offended within groups" that were based on pre-existing relationships - mainly brothers and cousins". But then stunningly, she suggested that these links were "unsophisticated" and "informal" Anyone who studies these things could have told that this is the unmistakable pattern of clan based crime: groups whose links are anything but informal and unsophisticated. Charlie Peters who has investigated this problem for GB News told me: "The deeper you probe, the more you see the presence of clans" We know that such communities are more likely to to see others as outsiders, of less moral value and when it comes to the young white girls, fair game (In fact Monica made that point very well on the other thread) to continue "The perpetrators also knew that they could commit crimes without getting dobbed in since loyalty is owed to the clan but not victims. In some cases abusers were aided by relatives in authority. A couple of examples, Last year, Saha Amran Miah 48, Saha Alman Miah 47 and Shaha Joman Miah 38 were convicted at Preston Crown Court of horrific abuse perpetrated in Barrow-in-Furness and Leeds. Yes,these were Pakistani men, but they were also brothers within an overreaching baradari. In Rotherham in 2016 Arshid Basharat and Bannaras Hussain groomed and raped children for nearly 20 years while Qurban Ali was found guilty of conspiracy to rape. Three of these men are brothers and Ali is their uncle. I have long advocated a ban on cousin marriage, but should perhaps say that I've never regarded it as a panacea. Improving integration requires so much more: ending mass uncontrolled immigration, amending legal frameworks to stop boats, deporting foreign criminals, not to mention other policies supported by large majorities but serially ducked by politicians. A ban on consanguinity would, though be of huge value. American states with bans tend to be more prosperous and faster growing. Nations with bans are richer and more integrated, with less corruption and lower rates of crime. A ban would also reduce the prevalence of the congenital diseases causing untold suffering in Kashmiri immigrant communities from Bradford to Luton. He goes on to say that the reason for the grooming scandal was not confronted for so long by both main parties the fear of seeming bigoted for investigating ethnic minorities even while they were gang raping young girls. Matthew Syed is himself the son of a Pakistani immigrant.

I also found this very interesting; especially the Clan angle and that many of the Clan were in local government!

You may like to look at the police documentary Murder 24/7 on the iplayer where family feuding and complete loyalty is expected. Good watch.

Just a bit curious about the reference to Arabic cultures. Pakistanis aren't Arabic, so why mention them?

Been thinking about this article and IMO the link between consanguinity and sexual grooming/child abuse is extremely tenuous.

It's true that consanguinity is common in certain parts of the world. It's not just amongst Muslims, by the way. For example, it's common in the Amish community, but AFAIK hasn't resulted in sexual grooming and horrific abuse.

Consanguinity was banned in the Christian church in the late Middle Ages, but was still common amongst the nobility and the royal family. The royal families involved in WW1 is a spectacular example of that. It didn't lead to sexual grooming gangs, nor did the various members of the "family" have much loyalty to each other.

There is some truth in the idea that closed communities will cover each other's backs and stick up for each other. Syed should do some research into the council estates of many cities and towns, where a tribal mentality develops.

I really don't understand why Syed mentions Arabic cultures specifically. Pakistanis aren't Arabs. While it's true that there is consanguinity in some Arab cultures, it's not true of others and, in any case, I'm not aware that Arabs have been involved in the grooming gangs.

It really needs somebody with insider knowledge of Pakistani communities in the UK to understand and explain why certain men seem to think grooming gangs are acceptable (if they do). It's not satisfactory for outsiders to assume and make judgements. The next stage is to make it absolutely clear that the behaviour is unacceptable and illegal.

I understand Syed is mixed race. His father was from Pakistan, but converted to Christianity. Syed went to Oxford and graduated with a first in PPE, so I doubt very much if he has first-hand experience of Pakistani communities in (mainly) northern towns and cities.

Frankly, I think the article doesn't have any value, but Syed will have been paid for producing the required number of words.

TerryBull
I’m surprised the article didn’t highlight the horrendous cost to the national health ( and councils ) Re disabled children born to first cousin marriage.

www.theguardian.com/society/2001/mar/14/guardiansocietysupplement6

Norway banned the practice this year, Sweden will bring in a ban next year.