Two cases currently in the headlines, Sandy Peggie's court case, costing something in the region of £220,000 and the cost of appeals against the deportation to Pakistan of a couple of members of the Rochdale grooming gang leaders, nearly £300,000.
Am I being unreasonable to think that the Sandie Peggie case should have been sorted internally without a court case at a great cost, it was a matter of common sense, she as a woman should not be expected to share a changing with a person who is an intact male, or be vilified for that. Secondly why do we have to waste public money fighting for the rights of foreign nationals not to be deported for committing heinous crimes, oh yeah I know due process under the law, the law is an ass then if it uses public money in this respect.
I thought as a country we are skint.
Glasweegran I couldn’t disagree with you more.
Why should a female go change somewhere else than the women’s changing room. Why didn’t Dr Upton do that
Fleur20
Glasweegran.. you have been captured by the bbc et al... you should read the actual transcripts from the tribunal... they tell a very different story....
This case is ALL about womens rights... rights that women have fought and DIED for for a long, long time. If transpeople want these right then they have to earn them through legislation.. NOT by negating or imposing on mine!
Sandie Peggie and her team and her financial backer are amazing... her strength and courage are humbling.
GET THE FACTS... NOT THE FICTION.
"Captured" by the BBC... captured by reading actual reporting of the incidents.... today's report carries on with still yet more staff members talking about what they have seen and heard from Sandie Peggie, being racist and anti trans. The mere fact that Sex Matters is involved is red flag enough. A pop up pressure group, well funded but with no sources of income to show.. her financial backer.... so you stop to wonder where that money is coming from ?? (most likely US Christian rightwing) All that is bank rolling experts being brought in to try and discredit anyone that speaks against her. Now the big money people are to give evidence themselves about someone that talked to them (which is nothing but third hand heresay of course) to put against actual staff members who were there giving evidence.
Trans people did fight for a long time for legislation for recognition... and it still exists. Gender recognition act 2010 is still in force, it is still perfectly legal to change your gender and there are still legal protections against harrasing someone on the basis of being transgender. Ms Peggie could easily be in court for her behaviour rather than a tribunal.
Let's not lose sight of the simple fact that if she was so bothered by the doctors presence in the changing room, she only had to go change somewhere else, or wait till the room was clear.
Can we also be clear, that no women fought or died for separate changing rooms. Those started in Victorian times because men thought the sight of bits of a women should be hidden away, no ankles to be see and all that (kind of like how a burqa isn't about women's rights either) and women's toileting was too revolting for men to be exposed to it.
It was never about women's safety, or even their privacy.
Remember too that right across Europe unisex toilets and changing spaces are perfectly common. There is no big problem there, no outcry against it, and it's been that way for decades, so why is it suddenly a problem here?
Ms Peggie always had the right to a private changing space, no-one took that away, and no-one was forcing her to change in front of anyone and she was always at liberty to use a different space, she just chose to find it a problem that there was someone else she disapproved of in that space, and then bully that person about it rather than sort it out with management.
Try today's evidence. Actual staff, making actual statements about the nature of what was going on there.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpqvz1rgdr5o
No worries.
Thank you Galaxy
Sorry Maremia that should say not material!
I think you are talking about people with dsds material they are not a third sex but belong to either the male or female sex.
I would hazard a guess that most people involved in this discussion know about this issue.
Not the same as trans, but also not accurate to say there are only 2 sexes. There are hermaphrodites, who exist not only in mythology.
Not offering this as part of your discussion. Just a fact check.
And it can be googled.
Binary and you can't change from one to the other despite a doctor thinking he has!
.. oh! And to be ABSOLUTELY clear... sex is BINARY...
Glasweegran.. you have been captured by the bbc et al... you should read the actual transcripts from the tribunal... they tell a very different story....
This case is ALL about womens rights... rights that women have fought and DIED for for a long, long time. If transpeople want these right then they have to earn them through legislation.. NOT by negating or imposing on mine!
Sandie Peggie and her team and her financial backer are amazing... her strength and courage are humbling.
GET THE FACTS... NOT THE FICTION.
Faxgran, that’s it in a straight forward nutshell. How can any individual complete years of medical training yet insist there are more than two sexes.
The other key issue for me is that anyone in a patient facing role should always work in full knowledge that it isn’t all about them. Being openly political, whether for social or other reasons should be left at home. Never imposed on patients/clients or even work colleagues
I agree with all the comments supporting Sandie Peggie. I wouldn’t feel safe with a doctor who can’t acknowledge there are only two sexes; surely one’s sex is one of the important markers in much medical treatment?
Yesterday's offering;, July 24th,'25.
Dr.Upton's lawyer, Jane Russell, KC, argued that Sandie Peggie's legal team were 'confusing' those giving evidence by referring to the doctor as 'he' and 'him,'. She said it was offensive in creating a hostile environment for 'my witnesses' and urged Naomi Cunningham , SP's barrister, 'to reflect upon her language.'
Alexander Kemp , the Employment Tribunal Judge, has already ruled that Dr. Upton should be referred to by male pronouns, as forcing Ms. Peggie and her lawyers to use terms they consider inaccurate would be unfair.
The Equality Act, 2010, states :The Equality Act 2010 does not compel individuals to use someone's preferred pronouns, but it does prohibit discrimination based on gender reassignment. Employers can encourage the use of preferred pronouns but cannot mandate it, and staff are not legally obligated to disclose their pronouns. 24.4.25
It terrifies me that a Barrister, KC no less, is flagrantly ignoring the directions of the Equality Act, and also the decision of the Tribunal Judge.
Yes we know.
Excellent summary eazybee!
Further lies they introduced were that Sandy Peggie is homophobic and unhappy that her daughter is a lesbian. Her daughter who has already given evidence on oath last February, went on twitter/X to post that did she need to go back to the tribunal again to swear on oath her mother is her best friend? Sandy has always welcomed her daughter's girlfriends into her home, and has no issues with her homosexuality.
Today's revelations about undisclosed emails have been very enlightening. Plus an Emergency medicine consultant who doesn't know how they assign sex at birth because she's not an expert!! It's a decision made at birth by the ppl delivering the baby, I believe. I'm not an expert at it Kate Searle, Consultant.
Glasweegran, you have distorted information in your post.
Dr. Theodore Upton, to give him his correct name, is a biological male. He claimed to have begun transitioning in 2022 and identified as a biological woman but did not possess a Gender Recognition Certificate as, in his words: it should not be required for a trans person's gender identity to be validated or respected He also stated that biological sex is a nebulous concept which doesn't really mean anything.
After Nurse Peggie objected to him entering and attempting to undress in the female nurses' changing room they had an altercation; subsequently Dr. Upton made a complaint to his Line Manager Dr. Kate Earles and attempted to get Ms. Peggie sacked; later she was suspended .
Allegations were made against Ms. Peggie claiming that she:
-had bullied Dr. Upton
-had made a racist remark against another Doctor
-was homophobic
-supported Donald Trump's views.
NONE of these allegations were upheld as none had been reported at the time and there was no documentation to support them.
They had not impacted on Ms Peggie's ability as a nurse.
No other complaint has ever been made against her, in 30 years of nursing.
The Senior Manager, Charlotte Myles, reviewed the allegations and dismissed them as' spiteful tittle-tattle,taken from unsubstantiated second and third hand information', which came from two named consultants and two nurses.
Sandie Peggie has been cleared of all charges levelled against her, but she is claiming for harassment and victimisation and wanted a public hearing quite rightly so quash the unjust attacks made against her. Dr. Kate Searles had claimed 'there would be 'patient safety issues' if Sandie Peggie were allowed to remain, which was refuted.
I would suggest patient safety would be compromised if Dr. Earles, Dr. Upton, and the two consultants and two nurses who made unsubstantiated allegations are allowed to remain.
The culture at the Victoria Hospital appears appalling, with no attention paid to nurses' rights or opinions, and no policies in place to support their inaccurate views on trans people's rights.
Sandie Peggie is a brave woman, particularly as people are still ignoring hard evidence from the Courts and the Sex Matters judgement.in an attempt to denigrate her .
MaizieD
The 'outliers are indeed very annoying, but I would hate any move away from making justice accessible to all, regardless of their means.
The point I was mainly addressing was the waste of money aspect. It might seem like it, but only if one believes that the state has a finite amount of money available to spend.
Yes, legal aid supports access to justice but the reality is most middle class defendants don't qualify as a result of Tory cuts long ago, Full legal aid should not be a means tested benefit.
Glasweegran
Not only victim-blaming but potentially libellous too then?
Can I just point out that it was Sandie Peggie who forced the court case? She forced it to be public and have the doctor named and publicly outed.
Good for her! This should not have been swept under the carpet. This case is of vital importance for all women and girls.
People who make death threats on social media should be tracked down by police and prosecuted.
Glasweegran if you had bothered to follow the actual tribunal hearings to date you would know that the rubbish you have just spouted amounts to libel against Sandy Peggie. The 18 month investigation by NHSFife cleared Sandy Peggie of any misconduct the day before the tribunal recommenced. Are you actually bothered about facts at all?
Bless you. There aren't any arguments left anymore are there. Just flailing around 'Trump' etc etc. By the way on the subject of misgendering or accurately describing a person's sex as I like to call it, Uptons own team have 'misgendered' him numerous times during the case.
Can I just point out that it was Sandie Peggie who forced the court case? She forced it to be public and have the doctor named and publicly outed.
The local NHS has received death threats as a result of all this, which could have been handled internally, and much of the cost avoided, but nurse Peggie refused that.
The NHS followed the guidance at the time, Dr Upton asked advice when transitioning, and was told to use the female changing rooms, she did nothing wrong (apart from exist). Sandie Peggie then started bullying in her for being there, called her names, misgendering her on purpose and comparing her to a rapist.
It's also worth nothing that it's been stated that no other staff members or patients had a problem with Dr Upton, or accepting her as female, while senior staff members have talked about Sandie Peggie being involved in racist incidents, and pushing her views on supporting Trump and his ideologies.... albeit that no-one went the length of official complaints, but they weren't happy about her coming back to work following suspension after her previous behavior.
See article for this:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c307ez5l4gqo
It's also in there that Nurse Peggie refused arrangements for different shifts to look after her dog. Previous articles have also stated that there were other places she could change if she was uncomfortable.
When you scratch the surface of the details on this case, it starts to look very different from the narrative of "Dr intimidates nurse"
Still though, there are those accusing the dr of sexual harrassment for which there is zero evidence, and no-one coming forward to back it up at all, unlike the idea that nurse Peggie has acutally been pushing a Trump style agenda of attacking a person simply for being transgender and going about their working day, which is bourne out by the statements of others.
One just makes a better headline than the other.
The projected continuing rise in the benefits bill has to be addressed wendym8116. We absolutely need welfare and sickness support for our people. I’m a life long Labour voter. I support a comprehensive review. I don’t believe people dependent on drugs or alcohol should be given mobility cars or more benefit thst their neighbour who lost their job
They are skint when it comes toaged and disabled .but for others it's a different kettle of fish(old English saying)
Galaxy
I actually find this vaguely terrifying, that organisations are prepared to say anything, no matter how insane it sounds, they will look back at this in years to come with utter disbelief.
Absolutely!
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