So what do GNs think of Starmer’s decision to recognise Palestine as a state?

phil51

wwm2 Sorry a bit of the subject but your comment regarding Mike Huckabee’s was enlightening. Did you not know about the second of Jesus and the consequence for the Jews, incidentally not just for the Jews? And the evangelical christians don't need to worry about Jews remaining in that area. There is an OT prophecy which states that God will bring back the Jew to their land and that He will keep them there. Ever wondered why such a small nation as Israel has managed from 1947 to win every war against the Arab nations, (who had overwhelming manpower) that attacked them?

Did you know that in Islam they believe that once the majority of Jews have been killed off Allah will come and Judge the world? And when he judges the Muslim for their sins, the Muslims can substitute unbelievers, particularly Christians and any remaining Jews, in their place for punishment. Now is that interesting?

If you do not know that, then you don't have understanding of the religious ideology, and have obviously never properly listen to the Islamic leaders or the people of Islam.

Substitute unbelievers 😲😖😄

Claremont

Iam64

Oreo has never denied the extremist/settler problem. It’s so difficult to discuss this without us retreating into our preferred space. That’s how I feel and how the threads pan out. I’d be fascinated to understand more about the attempts to broker peace

And yet now Netanyahu wants to occupy the whole of the land, ad expel all Palestinians. Illegal settlers?

And Oreo does seem to support Netanyahu and Knesset. So it is hard to know how to respond, indeed.

It’s easy, respond in any way you like that isn’t a personal attack or antisemitic.

And in the middle of all this, Netanyahu and the Knesset have approved 22 new totally illegal settlements in the West Bank

Yes - land grabbing. And to think Hitler advocated Lebensraum.

"Hitler won, he changed us. He made us like him"
Miriam Margolyes

And in the middle of all this, Netanyahu and the Knesset have approved 22 new totally illegal settlements in the West Bank

Yes - land grabbing. And to think Hitler advocated Lebensraum. I think.

"Hitler won, he changed us. He made us like him"
Miriam Margolyes

Last year an article that went into the violent history of Palestine and the State of Israel, explaining much of the conflict, concluded that it would be foolish to take sides as the situation is so complex. What I am struggling to understand is - where exactly are the Palestinians supposed to live? They had the West Bank and the Gaza strip, but what do they have now?

phil51

It's obvious now where you are coming from - fundamentalism.
Most mainstream Christian's, Muslims and Jews are not fundamentalists. They are educated beyond that and have the capacity to think for themselves, check out more educated interpretations of religious scripts and understand the value of everyone's life, not thinking of themselves as 'superior beings' by birth or religious entitlement.
An 'eye for an eye' as they say makes the whole world blind.

And in the middle of all this, Netanyahu and the Knesset have approved 22 new totally illegal settlements in the West Bank.

Letter in The Guardian

Many of my wife’s Jewish family and of mine were victims of the Holocaust. The world remained largely silent. We were among the few who were reluctantly given asylum in New Zealand. The Jewish cry “Never again!” is more than justified. It has not been heeded. With the western world’s complicity, the victims now are the people of Palestine, robbed of their ancestral land, massacred in the tens of thousands, tortured in Israel’s prisons, threatened with expulsion, starved by design (‘We are dying slowly, save us’: starvation takes hold in Gaza after a week of appalling milestones, 2 August), treated as less than human – all this in defiance of international law.

The belated recognition of a Palestinian state is no more than window-dressing for as long as the Palestine that was remains under cruel military occupation. The time for measured language is well past. It is time for action. Sanctions ended apartheid South Africa. Archbishop Tutu held Israel’s crimes to be worse. Nato acted in Kosovo. Why not in Gaza?

Is the last word to be left with the White House as children go on dying? I write as a former chair of Amnesty International UK, one of the many NGOs now naming the genocide for what it is. Peace Now is possible, with the necessary political will

Canon Dr Paul Oestreicher and Prof Barbara Einhorn
Wellington, New Zealand

wwm2 Sorry a bit of the subject but your comment regarding Mike Huckabee’s was enlightening. Did you not know about the second of Jesus and the consequence for the Jews, incidentally not just for the Jews? And the evangelical christians don't need to worry about Jews remaining in that area. There is an OT prophecy which states that God will bring back the Jew to their land and that He will keep them there. Ever wondered why such a small nation as Israel has managed from 1947 to win every war against the Arab nations, (who had overwhelming manpower) that attacked them?

Did you know that in Islam they believe that once the majority of Jews have been killed off Allah will come and Judge the world? And when he judges the Muslim for their sins, the Muslims can substitute unbelievers, particularly Christians and any remaining Jews, in their place for punishment. Now is that interesting?

If you do not know that, then you don't have understanding of the religious ideology, and have obviously never properly listen to the Islamic leaders or the people of Islam.

phil51

growstuff

phil51

Whitewavemark2

The point is which some seem to be not understanding.

We have nothing to say about the religions of the perpetrators and victims - it is primarily the history and politics of the area.

So this discussion about Judaism and Islam is a total red herring.

Not true

Please explain.

Islam and politics are so woven together that they are impossible to separate. At the root of the war is the Islamic ideology and until that ideology changes there will never be any lasting peace no matter what the politicians do. So innocent children and people will continue to suffer horribly. Afghanistan is an example, a tragic waste of life of USA and British soldiers and many Afghans, and we are back where we started, the Taliban in charge.

Thanks for the explanation, but I disagree. At the root of the war in Gaza is the fact Gazans had their land taken away from them.

Iam64

Oreo has never denied the extremist/settler problem. It’s so difficult to discuss this without us retreating into our preferred space. That’s how I feel and how the threads pan out. I’d be fascinated to understand more about the attempts to broker peace

And yet now Netanyahu wants to occupy the whole of the land, ad expel all Palestinians. Illegal settlers?

And Oreo does seem to support Netanyahu and Knesset. So it is hard to know how to respond, indeed.

Well why anyone would choose to live as an Israeli in the West Bank is beyond my comprehension. Oreo It must be very difficult.

ronib

Oreo just be careful with your news sources. It’s not first hand experience.

Since I don’t live in Israel or the West Bank I can have no first hand experience but they simply shouldn’t be there, there is plenty of room to build a house in Israel.

Can we afford the drop in income from the arms trade ? Smileless2012

Oreo just be careful with your news sources. It’s not first hand experience.

I agree WWM and while I agree that the role of politics and economics is greater than any religious ideology, IMO economics is the greater of the two.

Like Germany, we should stop supplying arms to Israel.

ronib

Do you know any? Oreo

No I don’t but the fact that they take any land they fancy and encroach further and further into the West Bank and are often very violent in their methods tells me all I need to know.

I really think that to argue the war from a theological perspective is on a complete hiding to nothing.

From my humanist perspective it is a plague on all their houses, and whilst I can understand the religious ideology behind much of the rhetoric, politics and economics play a much bigger roll.

Which is why Gaza will never be of much interest to the rich world, and why so little will be done to help them, other than possibly humanitarian aid. Chomsky made a speech recognising this.

Islamophobia is just as corrosive as antisemitism.

growstuff

phil51

Whitewavemark2

The point is which some seem to be not understanding.

We have nothing to say about the religions of the perpetrators and victims - it is primarily the history and politics of the area.

So this discussion about Judaism and Islam is a total red herring.

Not true

Please explain.

Islam and politics are so woven together that they are impossible to separate. At the root of the war is the Islamic ideology and until that ideology changes there will never be any lasting peace no matter what the politicians do. So innocent children and people will continue to suffer horribly. Afghanistan is an example, a tragic waste of life of USA and British soldiers and many Afghans, and we are back where we started, the Taliban in charge.

Iam64

Oreo has never denied the extremist/settler problem. It’s so difficult to discuss this without us retreating into our preferred space. That’s how I feel and how the threads pan out. I’d be fascinated to understand more about the attempts to broker peace

As far as I am aware, there has been constant attempts at brokering peace, and they have all clearly been ready to compromise, return hostages etc. The more moderate in the Israeli government are ready to compromise

Unfortunately it has to get past Netanyahu and his extreme militant supporters.

So every attempt has been thwarted.

Do you know any? Oreo

Iam64

Oreo has never denied the extremist/settler problem. It’s so difficult to discuss this without us retreating into our preferred space. That’s how I feel and how the threads pan out. I’d be fascinated to understand more about the attempts to broker peace

Thank you Iam64 I always find your posts consider all sides of a problem.
Yes, I think the Israeli settlers in the West Bank are awful people, extremely right wing and violent.

growstuff

Sorry, Lizzie, just seen you'd already posted that.

No problem growstuff.

Several people also posted the same around the same time. Clearly we all wanted to the correct information out there.

Oreo has never denied the extremist/settler problem. It’s so difficult to discuss this without us retreating into our preferred space. That’s how I feel and how the threads pan out. I’d be fascinated to understand more about the attempts to broker peace