So what do GNs think of Starmer’s decision to recognise Palestine as a state?

To be fair, just and giving even to our enemy Claremont.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that Israelis were united in their fight against Hamas, whom he described as an enemy of incomparable cruelty. “They are committed to completely eliminating this evil from the world,” Netanyahu said in Hebrew. He then added: “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.”

There are more than 23,000 verses in the Old Testament. The ones Netanyahu turned to, as Israeli forces launched their ground invasion in Gaza, are among its most violent—and have a long history of being used by Jews on the far right to justify killing Palestinians.

As others quickly pointed out, God commands King Saul in the first Book of Samuel to kill every person in Amalek, a rival nation to ancient Israel. “This is what the Lord Almighty says,” the prophet Samuel tells Saul. “‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

growstuff

FriedGreenTomatoes2

phil51

As I said in my previous post, people do not want to accept the truth. This is a religious war. I understand that it is hard for many of us in the west to accept the words that are spoken by the leaders of these terroristgroups and governmentswho are Muslim. But when they say they want to destroy Israel, they mean they want to destroy Israel. They want one state, they want to establish an Islamic state. In fact they want the whole world to be under Islam. I get it, it is hard for us in the west to accept such a notion, perhaps it is because of our tolerant attitude.

The argument that some Jews are also calling for the end of the war, does not mean anything. They also are struggling to accept the truth or have their own political agendas. As I said in my previous post, some Jewish organisations supported Hitler on his rise to power.

We all have a right to our own opinions, but our opinions should not be based false claims and fake news.

I would suspect that the majority of people who are anti Israel, don't know the history of the area, have never read the Quran, never really read or listened to these Islamic leaders,never done any proper research regarding Islam and the way you are supposedto treat non muslims and those who are critical of their faith. If you are muslim or a non muslim who is critical of Islam, even in Europe, watch out. It's easier to accept the lies, and the distorting of the facts, than to face up to the truth. because we can't believe that people really want to behave like that. Well some do and it doesn't take many to cause utter and tragic destruction. How many were involvedin the bombing in London 2005? How many were involved in 9/11? I could list more.Very few Muslims leaders stand up and speak against these tragic events.

War is a horrible, tragic, senseless waste of life. Israel will have made mistakes in this war, they are falliblehuman beings, but Israel did not start this war. Despite the posts on here that seem to present evidence that historical Israelis responsible for all this, they are not. I have seen and heard so many lies and distortions of the truth, its mind blowing. The racism towards the Jewish people is beyond any logical explanation, and those who carry on presenting these distort truths and the lies are fueling anti semitism.

The persecutionand killing of Jews in this area has been going on for hundreds of years, well before 1948. And this will continue and will not stop, because a certain "prophet" has decreed that it must be done until every Jew is dead.

When are we going to wake up and face the reality of the situation?

I think you are spot on.
I often think (of terrorist activities here in the UK) that the imams in their mosques should say much more to condemn their atrocities. 🤷‍♀️

Try doing some serious homework FGT. Much of that post most definitely isn't "spot on".

He perhaps shoud read the Torah and what they say about the 'enemy'!

ronib

You’re a bit vague today growstuff . Did you have any specific questions or points? Or just a general dismissal?

Yep, general dismissal IMO.

growstuff

Anniebach

Phil51 thank you for truth, I so hope you keep sharing it.

Where? I didn't see any "truth".

I saw complete truth, with no disrespect to other posters or snide comments in it either.

You’re a bit vague today growstuff . Did you have any specific questions or points? Or just a general dismissal?

Anniebach

Phil51 thank you for truth, I so hope you keep sharing it.

Where? I didn't see any "truth".

FriedGreenTomatoes2

To be honest growstuff and with no disrespect to yourself I’m more inclined to believe phil take on the truth of the situation. I had read about HAMAS using cropped digital photos of starving children in SYRIA. It was verified too.

HAMAS will stop at nothing.
Release the bluddy hostages!

That's up to you. However, if you should happen to find any books or respectable articles about the Middle East, try reading them. You might be enlightened.

Excellent post WWM.

phil51

I shall answer your post as far as I can, where I can find your assertions based on fact.

First you claim that the war is a religious war. The truth is that religion and politics are tightly intertwined.

In my view it is a political war with elements of religion impacted on and legitimising actions. The two opposing elements are almost entirely about nationalist Zionism v nationalist Islam. But it is first and foremost a political war, deeply rooted in economic resource, power struggle and of course regional rivalries.

Next you claim that Islam is an expansionist religion that wishes to take over the world.

We have evidence over the 1400 of periods of Islamic expansion which spread from the area now known as Saudi Arabia eastwards to Asia and westwards to North Africa and the south of Europe.

It is a religion like Christianity that proselytises (dawah) its faith, which has resulted - like Christianity in it spread, but it has not been so successful as Christianity.

That is in total contradiction to the Jewish faith which sees proselytising as offensive.

With regard to the Islamic wish to destroy Israel.

The majority of the Islamic league do not recognise or have any diplomatic relationship with Israel. This animosity goes back since the inception of the Islamic religion, with Allah warning Canaan against corrupting the land.

Your opinion concerning Jews who oppose Netanyahu and his action in Gaza - is just that. The opposition amongst Jews both inside and outside of Israel is growing, because of the growing evidence of genocide and ethnic cleansing in Gaza and the illegality snd violence shown by settlers in West Bank.

With regard to the 9/11 and London bombings - and other violent snd revolting acts carried out in reaction to the wars in various Middle East countries carried out by the west. - utter tragedies - which would almost certainly not happened if Bush and Blair had taken note of voter opinion.

You use the term persecution of Jews over hundreds of years suggesting that they have been the constant victim throughout this time.

2.5million Palestinian refugees spread across the Middle East would stand in opposition to that assertion.

But if you go back over the centuries, I think that you would come to the conclusion that the relationship between the two groups has waxed and waned according to the politics, western persecution and religious difference. Indeed there were long periods when the two groups lived very peacefully together sharing culture and economic activity.

There has of course because of it longevity groups of Jews scattered throughout the Middle East for millennia, and as a result of the 1948 declaration, and expulsion of Arabs, these Jews found themselves also the victims of expulsion from countries in which they had lived - just like the Arabs for millennia.

I absolutely agree that anti-semtism is “beyond logical explanation” but so is Islamaphobia, and racism however it manifests itself.

This war it seems has lasted for over a thousand years, and will continue as long as the two groups exist.

But I still can’t get over the little children - “suffer the little children, and forbid them not” a message to Christians from Jesus. I’m am a humanist but that will always resonate.

Claremont

Oreo wrote : '*If it makes for future terrorists then so be it.*

have not replied yet and I just do not know how- as it is such an incredible statement.

No words really .

Perhaps those whose minds are made up will not believe anyone anyway when it comes to proof of genocide or famine.
So be it.
They are free to believe what they will.

Anniebach

White Europeans never lie Babs03 ? You singled out ‘colour’

Because a Muslim of colour would not be believed Annie as has been shown in earlier comments.
Am playing to the gallery here which is very sad and I hate doing it but it really has come to this.

Oreo wrote : '*If it makes for future terrorists then so be it.*

have not replied yet and I just do not know how- as it is such an incredible statement.

White Europeans never lie Babs03 ? You singled out ‘colour’

FriedGreenTomatoes2

To be honest growstuff and with no disrespect to yourself I’m more inclined to believe phil take on the truth of the situation. I had read about HAMAS using cropped digital photos of starving children in SYRIA. It was verified too.

HAMAS will stop at nothing.
Release the bluddy hostages!

But are you also saying you believe Hamas fake the aerial photos of the hell hole Gaza has become, bombed to dust by the IDF, and that they are lying about the 60,000 deaths, a third of whom are children, or that aid workers who are white Europeans are lying about the lack of food and Palestinians being fired upon at aid trucks??
I can believe Hamas lie and exaggerate about some things, as do the Israeli government, but they would deserve an Oscar if they could fake a genocide and famine.

To be honest growstuff and with no disrespect to yourself I’m more inclined to believe phil take on the truth of the situation. I had read about HAMAS using cropped digital photos of starving children in SYRIA. It was verified too.

HAMAS will stop at nothing.
Release the bluddy hostages!

Phil51 thank you for truth, I so hope you keep sharing it.

Yes, Gaza looks like a hell-hole.
It's heartrending and no decent person could failed to be moved by what the people of Gaza are going through.

But:
Hamas must release the rest of the hostages.
The Israeli Government must let aid through.

It's become a war of stubborn intransigence with no purpose. Both Governments stubborn as each other.

Well done phil51 for posting what’s unpalatable truths for some.👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

growstuff

phil51 I also read your post and IMO you have distorted some facts and omitted others. FWIW I am not generally "anti-Israel*, but I have read extensively on the history of the Middle East and keep up-to-date with current affairs.

I will reply to any of the distorted facts you said I have made, and you are right I could have put a lot more in my post. However it will not be today, as I now have things that need doing.
I don't want anyone to just take my word for it, properly check it out, from all sources, not just those that fit your opinions. I know, it can be painful to know the truth.

growstuff - please tell what facts I have distorted?

Whitewavemark2 - I know the suffering of the children is horrific and hard to get past, and Hamas uses this to promote their narrative. But please remember that many of the pictures we see in the media are not of children from Gaza. Recent ones have been from Syria or children who are ill. The recent one of the boy with his mother that has been splashed across the media is just a deception. It has been cropped and the whole picture tells a different story. This poor child is desperately ill. I think I heard that he is now being treated in a hospital in Israel. Something Israel has been doing long before Oct 7th for sick children. The truth is Hamas does not care. Many of the reports and pictures we are presented are lies and deceptions. Remember the rocket attack on the hospital car park in Gaza where it was said an Israel rocket had landed and killed, I think it was 500 people. It turned out to be a rocket fired from terrorists in Gaza and 50 were killed.

The information from Gaza, and incidentally the UN as well, is very suspect to say the least.

War is horrendous, children and innocent people get caught up in it. Egypt should have allowed those innocents out as refugees but they shut the border. Hamas and others do not care, if they lay down their weapons, return the hostages, if Gaza was demilitarised, then the war would be over.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Whitewavemark2

phil51

I read your post with interest.

My problem is that I can never get past the dirty, hungry, and unhappy children.

They are witness to evil.

I know it’s heart rending Whitewave but why do their fellow men try to shaft the starving children by profiteering of goods on the black market? Aid freely given by countries distressed at these scenes.

Man’s inhumanity to man. Writ large.

Yes, which is why I can’t get past the dirty, hungry and unhappy children, who were fine until the blockade.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

phil51

As I said in my previous post, people do not want to accept the truth. This is a religious war. I understand that it is hard for many of us in the west to accept the words that are spoken by the leaders of these terroristgroups and governmentswho are Muslim. But when they say they want to destroy Israel, they mean they want to destroy Israel. They want one state, they want to establish an Islamic state. In fact they want the whole world to be under Islam. I get it, it is hard for us in the west to accept such a notion, perhaps it is because of our tolerant attitude.

The argument that some Jews are also calling for the end of the war, does not mean anything. They also are struggling to accept the truth or have their own political agendas. As I said in my previous post, some Jewish organisations supported Hitler on his rise to power.

We all have a right to our own opinions, but our opinions should not be based false claims and fake news.

I would suspect that the majority of people who are anti Israel, don't know the history of the area, have never read the Quran, never really read or listened to these Islamic leaders,never done any proper research regarding Islam and the way you are supposedto treat non muslims and those who are critical of their faith. If you are muslim or a non muslim who is critical of Islam, even in Europe, watch out. It's easier to accept the lies, and the distorting of the facts, than to face up to the truth. because we can't believe that people really want to behave like that. Well some do and it doesn't take many to cause utter and tragic destruction. How many were involvedin the bombing in London 2005? How many were involved in 9/11? I could list more.Very few Muslims leaders stand up and speak against these tragic events.

War is a horrible, tragic, senseless waste of life. Israel will have made mistakes in this war, they are falliblehuman beings, but Israel did not start this war. Despite the posts on here that seem to present evidence that historical Israelis responsible for all this, they are not. I have seen and heard so many lies and distortions of the truth, its mind blowing. The racism towards the Jewish people is beyond any logical explanation, and those who carry on presenting these distort truths and the lies are fueling anti semitism.

The persecutionand killing of Jews in this area has been going on for hundreds of years, well before 1948. And this will continue and will not stop, because a certain "prophet" has decreed that it must be done until every Jew is dead.

When are we going to wake up and face the reality of the situation?

I think you are spot on.
I often think (of terrorist activities here in the UK) that the imams in their mosques should say much more to condemn their atrocities. 🤷‍♀️

Try doing some serious homework FGT. Much of that post most definitely isn't "spot on".

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Whitewavemark2

phil51

I read your post with interest.

My problem is that I can never get past the dirty, hungry, and unhappy children.

They are witness to evil.

I know it’s heart rending Whitewave but why do their fellow men try to shaft the starving children by profiteering of goods on the black market? Aid freely given by countries distressed at these scenes.

Man’s inhumanity to man. Writ large.

Indeed! It happens in every war, but shouldn't distract from the bigger picture.