Will Trump really support Ukraine at meeting with Putin?

I agree Smileless. Putin took the lead in the press meeting opening it with his speech when it should have been Trump. He also had to.mention that Alaska once belonged to Russia.
The parting quip about the next meeting being in Moscow (spoken in English) was quite telling too.
Putin had the upper hand making Trump look foolish.

{hmm} well KS maybe pretty well respected in the world stage MayBe but his statement following yesterday's embarrassing display by Trump with Putin elicits no respect from me.

IMO Trump not only made a complete fool of himself and his country but also of any leaders who are trying to sell yesterday's debacle as any kind of success, including KS.

Putin’s sword will not sleep in his hand until he has rebuilt the old Russian empire. That’s the reality.

Imo there should be no further talks until Putin calls a ceasefire.

Meantime I think that the only way to achieve peace is through strength.

We should give Ukraine the intelligence it needs, the arms it needs, the political support and the money.

At the very least ukraine should be level with Russia. Russia already looses 10 of its fighters to Ukraines 1. Ukraine knows how to win this, just give it the means and support.

Just pondering on how those people who seemed to think we needed a leader like Trump feel about the fact that our PM seems to be pretty well respected on the world stage ( along with somehow maintaining a good relationship with Trump) given that Trump has imo made a complete fool of himself and his country?

We know that there are a number of republicans who have a large package of sanctions ready to go, and apparently Trump does not have a veto over this (I am unclear if this is) so it could be put through congress next week.

Why not? The USA has to grab back some momentum it has lost as a result of Trump in Alaska. And to loose face to a small country -economically - like Russia takes some swallowing.

Whitewavemark2

David49

The US does accept that Trump failed that’s not in question.

If Europe is so sure that nuclear escalation is a bluff they should arm Ukraine fully escalate the war and see what happens, even now Europe is far better placed to win such a confrontation, even without the US actively supporting.

My guess is we won’t, that’s Putins view. Also front line states like Poland and Baltic states will not be keen on the idea.

They don’t need to.

USA and Europe has it within their power to bring Russia economically to its knees.

Of course arming ukraine to see out the war would be sensible , but the economy is what will bring him down, without so much bloodshed.

The uncertainty is China, oil sanctions on China are not going to be effective, they can if they wish sustain Russia for many years in the same way Europe sustains Ukraine.

As we have found in the trade tariff talks China can absorb a lot of pain without cracking, so can Russia because both have controlled populations that are not likely to rebel against official policy.

Casdon

With all due respect David49, that is bullshit. I can’t believe you genuinely think a neutral Ukraine was ever the extent of Putin’s ambition.

Putin won’t stop until all of Ukraine is within his grasp.

So today we see Trump aligning with the psychopath, war criminal and murderer , by accepting Putin’s words which are utterly meaningless.

With all due respect David49, that is bullshit. I can’t believe you genuinely think a neutral Ukraine was ever the extent of Putin’s ambition.

Putin is watching Trump as one might watch a fly crawl up the wall. He has no intention of budging at all on his original demands. Read Orlando Figes' Story of Russia. Note Story, not History.

Sir Keir Starmer’s statement in full.

Casdon

ronib

We have only a glimpse of the situation in Ukraine. The West seems incapable of trying to see why Russia has gone along this path. I am not convinced that Ukraine has thought this through - this is a war they can’t win. They need to negotiate a ceasefire and deal rather than continue to kill their own people. What is the stumbling block? We’re not given this information in any clear sense.

Okay ronib, please explain exactly why you think Russia has gone down this path, and why you think ‘The West’ should accept Putin’s concept of what territory is ‘owned’ by Russia? That at last would provide a proper basis for discussing it.

Putin made it crystal clear that he wanted a neutral Ukraine all along, that’s why he annexed Crimea, Ukraine continued to ignore his concern so Putin invaded the Donbass region.

There is no point in us trying to reason the justification for that, it’s fact, the invasion has happened, Putin is not backing down on his wish for a neutral Ukraine.

Hundreds of billions have been wasted, hundreds of thousand lives lost gains for Ukraine look as far away as ever

David49

The US does accept that Trump failed that’s not in question.

If Europe is so sure that nuclear escalation is a bluff they should arm Ukraine fully escalate the war and see what happens, even now Europe is far better placed to win such a confrontation, even without the US actively supporting.

My guess is we won’t, that’s Putins view. Also front line states like Poland and Baltic states will not be keen on the idea.

They don’t need to.

USA and Europe has it within their power to bring Russia economically to its knees.

Of course arming ukraine to see out the war would be sensible , but the economy is what will bring him down, without so much bloodshed.

What on earth makes you think Poland wouldn't want Europe increasing Ukraine's ability to fight this invasion? Poland has recently increased it's defence budget to 4.7% of GDP , making it the biggest in the EU and the Baltic states are all in NATO now that Finland joined. They will not want Russia to defeat Ukraine then turn it's gaze on them.

The US does accept that Trump failed that’s not in question.

If Europe is so sure that nuclear escalation is a bluff they should arm Ukraine fully escalate the war and see what happens, even now Europe is far better placed to win such a confrontation, even without the US actively supporting.

My guess is we won’t, that’s Putins view. Also front line states like Poland and Baltic states will not be keen on the idea.

ronib

We have only a glimpse of the situation in Ukraine. The West seems incapable of trying to see why Russia has gone along this path. I am not convinced that Ukraine has thought this through - this is a war they can’t win. They need to negotiate a ceasefire and deal rather than continue to kill their own people. What is the stumbling block? We’re not given this information in any clear sense.

Okay ronib, please explain exactly why you think Russia has gone down this path, and why you think ‘The West’ should accept Putin’s concept of what territory is ‘owned’ by Russia? That at last would provide a proper basis for discussing it.

How about stop stealing Ukrainian children? That seems a good place to start.

Stop bombing innocent people Russia.

I couldn’t agree more.

All seems a bit vague to me …. In the circumstances there are more important issues than the Ukrainian constitution!*wwm2*. Like stop bombing innocent people.

ronib

We have only a glimpse of the situation in Ukraine. The West seems incapable of trying to see why Russia has gone along this path. I am not convinced that Ukraine has thought this through - this is a war they can’t win. They need to negotiate a ceasefire and deal rather than continue to kill their own people. What is the stumbling block? We’re not given this information in any clear sense.

Well let’s see

Ukraine never wanted not started this war.

It is pretty clear to most commentators why Putin started the war

Ukraine would negotiate a ceasefire tomorrow, but will for a number of reasons not meet Putin’s demands, amongst which is the release of Ukrainian land, which is against their constitution.

David49

Whitewavemark2

So Trump is now looking much weakened, both visually (did anyone notice that as he came down the steps from the plane?) and politically.

There is a large section of the Republican Party which is ready to push back against Trump.

It has a huge package of sanction against Russia ready to be signed off, and it is very ready to support both NATO and Ukraine.

Let’s hope they prevail.

I’m not quite sure what you are saying here.

If you are saying that a lot of Republican want more action against Russia - there are plenty of hawks amongst those ranks would be thinking that way, mostly involved in the arms industries that will benefit.

Sanctions are a possibility and will hurt Russia, BUT if Europe does decide to escalate the war Putin is likely to use that to threaten Nuclear escalation, are we willing to call his bluff on that.

Today we had breakfast with my brother in law who lives in US and a staunch Democrat, normally hasn’t got a good word for him, even he accepts that Trump has done his best to find peace. It’s just not a big issue in the US and they certainly don’t want to start a war over Ukraine, Trumps advisors will be telling him and others don’t escalate this

What I am saying is that the vast majority of the USA now, including most republicans have concluded that Trump has failed (although it won’t be said) and that strength with sanctions etc is the only way forward.

Trump failed for a number of reasons.

First he singularly failed to prepare for the summit in any way.

He constantly underestimates Putin

His confidence in his ability to get a deal is totally misplaced

His admiration for leaders he sees as “strong” is a real weakness.

And lastly - what the hades has Putin got on Trump?

T rump has definitely not done the best he could - far from it.

We have only a glimpse of the situation in Ukraine. The West seems incapable of trying to see why Russia has gone along this path. I am not convinced that Ukraine has thought this through - this is a war they can’t win. They need to negotiate a ceasefire and deal rather than continue to kill their own people. What is the stumbling block? We’re not given this information in any clear sense.

Smileless2012

Putin's been threatening Nuclear escalation since the beginning of the war because IMO that's all it is; a threat. To do so would be suicide for Russia.

If the war ends it will probably be the end of Putin's reign and like Netanyahu that's all he really cares about.

Exactly so.

Putin's been threatening Nuclear escalation since the beginning of the war because IMO that's all it is; a threat. To do so would be suicide for Russia.

If the war ends it will probably be the end of Putin's reign and like Netanyahu that's all he really cares about.