Will Trump really support Ukraine at meeting with Putin?

Sadly Trump is not a "tiny pawn" although in many ways I wish he was. The US was a founder member of NATO and the only time article five has been invoked was by the US following the 9/11 attack. Trump threatened to leave NATO in 2018. If the US did leave NATO it would greatly weaken the alliance which has to a great extent kept member countries of NATO free of war on their own soil. This is of importance to all of us and none of us know which way Trump will jump. If he washes his hands of Ukraine, he might also decide that Ukraine is Europe's problem and leave NATO which would be a huge "win" for Putin.

ronib, I fear that you are right. Trump is a tiny pawn in this game of chess, and Putin knows exactly how to play him - even after the two weeks are up ..

The killing will stop when it suits Putin. Not before.

I see Trump is up to his old tricks of delaying action/meetings etc for another 2 weeks, whilst innocent Ukrainians are being slaughtered.

Putin probably did see the Orange Revolution as a threat, after all the Ukrainian people demonstrated against a fraudulent election and made a choice not to be led by a corrupt authoritarian leader. Putin would have been concerned that his own electorate might well do the same so he spent the next 10 years silencing every attempt to depose him before he invaded Ukraine. Russia effectively lost control of the Black sea with the end of the cold war and the breaking up of the USSR, Ukraine agreed to lease the port to the Russians until 2017 but gave notice to leave after that (as was their right). TBh what Putin thinks or says, for that matter, is of much less importance than what he actually does. He had pro-Russian activists meddling in Ukrainian politics in the Crimea way before he invaded in 2014 and way before Zelensky became President in 2019.

foxie48

I'm not sure it's fair to say that NATO was encouraging Ukraine to join. Ukraine first request to join in 2002 and an action plan was drawn up. 2008 it was finally agreed that Ukraine would be able to join in the future, futher negotiations took place in 2017 and 2021 until in September 2022, following Russia's invasion into Crimea, Zelensky asked for accelerated accession. Hardly NATO pushing Ukraine to join!

It’s not what we think that matters it’s what Putin thinks, he saw the Orange Revolution in Ukraine as a threat to a neutral Ukraine. Zelensky did nothing to reassure him so he took action. Did NATO not consider that Russia might object to loosing it bases in Crimea or did they just think it would go unnoticed.

It’s not victim blaming because that is how PUTIN saw it
develop

Zelensky and the Ukranian defenders are fighting for their country. Don't think any high horses are involved, maybe some Iranian drones and North Korean 'volunteers'. European countries are concerned and involved because with Putin still in charge, they believe they could be next in line.

FranP

At least he is trying. Not heard a word from the EU, the German chancellor, nor the Polish govt. Getting mixed messages from Kier.

I find it somewhat ironic that the world ignored the pro-Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine for years, designated it as an internal matter, until Russia decided to get involved, and now we are being asked to support the Ukrainian government as a totally innocent victim.
The only victims here are the people caught up in this power struggle.

Trump can beat Putin up, or he can side with him, but nothing will happen if Zelensky does not get off his high horse and come to the table. As Trump said a long time ago, Zelensky is delusional if he is not willing to talk and continues to expect the rest of the world to fund and win his war.
It is a bit like a boundary garden fence issue - you can be as nasty as you like, you can have right on your side, but at the end of the day you still have to live next door to the neighbour with the big dog.

This is a strange argument. It’s akin to saying that if Scotland and Wales separatist movements decided that their countries would leave the UK, England and the people in those countries who wanted to remain in the UK would say okay, do what you like.

PS the EU is not part of the Trump/Ukraine/Russia negotiation process, it doesn’t have sovereignty over the individual countries in Europe? Macron has said plenty by the way.

As Trump said a long time ago, Zelensky is delusional if he is not willing to talk and continues to expect the rest of the world to fund and win his war.

Out of interest, if he could have joined NATO, would he then still have to pick up the bill?

By DARVO, I mean the approach of Putin and all who support his actions in Ukraine.

This is victim-blaming, isn't it? It's DARVO - deny, accuse, reverse victim and offender.

" . . . at the end of the day you still have to live next door to the neighbour with the big dog." so when your greedy neighbour insists on exercising his big aggressive dog in your garden while he takes your fruit and vegetables for his own dinner, you would take down your fence, and allow the big dog to eat your chickens and the neighbour to strip your orchard and vegetable garden?

What has it got to do with Putin whether Ukraine joins NATO or not?

He might not like it but so what! Ukraine is a sovereign country with a democratically elected government. Putin has no right to tell them what they can / can’t do!

Putin could stop the war right this minute - stop bombing Ukraine and leave them alone.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that NATO was encouraging Ukraine to join. Ukraine first request to join in 2002 and an action plan was drawn up. 2008 it was finally agreed that Ukraine would be able to join in the future, futher negotiations took place in 2017 and 2021 until in September 2022, following Russia's invasion into Crimea, Zelensky asked for accelerated accession. Hardly NATO pushing Ukraine to join!

Oreo

foxie48

Yup, Putin plays dirty, he's charged with being a war criminal so it was pretty revolting seeing him being given the red carpet treatment by Trump in Alaska! I don't think anyone thinks Ukraine can "win" this war which was not of it's making. The question is how to keep the loss as small as possible and how to ensure Ukraine's future security. Russia's claim that NATO is a threat to Russia, is of course, utter rubbish. NATO is a purely defensive organisation. The question is will Russia risk invading a NATO member like Latvia or Lithuania? How Europe deals with the invasion of Ukraine will be very relative to what Putin might do in the future.

A good assessment of the situation.
It’s anyone’s guess what will actually happen now.

NATO isn’t purely defensive in Putins eyes, he saw the EU and NATO openly encouraging Ukraine to join them as a threat to Russian security. Zelensky was openly asking for NATO membership so Crimea was an annexed to protect his Black Sea bases, the rest is history and now the whole of Ukraine is under threat

Russia invaded Ukraine expecting an easy ride. Why should Zelensky back down over anything? All Putin has to do is withdraw his troops and the war will be over. I am afraid that trump is an idiot with no decency, decorum or diplomacy. No wonder all those European leaders accompanied President Zelensky to the White House. It’s disappointing that there are people out there who believe that Russia did not start the war when it was that megalomaniac Putin.

Many countries have complicated political histories and shifting boundaries. Pick a point in history and you can build an argument, pick another point and you can make a different argument. However the fact remains that Putin invaded sovereign country of Ukraine that he had promised to protect and most Ukrainians strongly want to remain Ukrainian.

At least he is trying. Not heard a word from the EU, the German chancellor, nor the Polish govt. Getting mixed messages from Kier.

I find it somewhat ironic that the world ignored the pro-Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine for years, designated it as an internal matter, until Russia decided to get involved, and now we are being asked to support the Ukrainian government as a totally innocent victim.
The only victims here are the people caught up in this power struggle.

Trump can beat Putin up, or he can side with him, but nothing will happen if Zelensky does not get off his high horse and come to the table. As Trump said a long time ago, Zelensky is delusional if he is not willing to talk and continues to expect the rest of the world to fund and win his war.
It is a bit like a boundary garden fence issue - you can be as nasty as you like, you can have right on your side, but at the end of the day you still have to live next door to the neighbour with the big dog.

Very true, foxie48 ☹

Above reply to Allira

Trouble is authoritarian regimes are extremely effective at suppressing dissent. Look at what Putin subjected Navalny to, nerve agent in his underpants and then when that didn't kill him, trumped up charges in a prison in Siberia which did. People need to be very brave to stand up against dictators and let's be frank, most of us are not brave! Even leaving Russia doesn't make dissenters safe. People in Russia who dissent get put on lists, they are subjected to economic sanctions, lose the ability to travel freely, their family and friends are put at risk and they get locked up on trumped up charges. Anyone who thinks we should look the other way when Putin flexes his muscles IMO needs to remember this.

foxie48

Yup, Putin plays dirty, he's charged with being a war criminal so it was pretty revolting seeing him being given the red carpet treatment by Trump in Alaska! I don't think anyone thinks Ukraine can "win" this war which was not of it's making. The question is how to keep the loss as small as possible and how to ensure Ukraine's future security. Russia's claim that NATO is a threat to Russia, is of course, utter rubbish. NATO is a purely defensive organisation. The question is will Russia risk invading a NATO member like Latvia or Lithuania? How Europe deals with the invasion of Ukraine will be very relative to what Putin might do in the future.

A good assessment of the situation.
It’s anyone’s guess what will actually happen now.

There is nothing new under the sun.

Perhaps peace-loving people should rise up and rid their countries of these megalomaniac leaders intent on destruction.
The problem is, they are surrounded by like-minded people and it would be like cutting the head off the Hydra.

But what should a country do when it is attacked by a "despotic megalomaniac"? Ukraine didn't attack Russia, yet it has been invaded twice in a decade. Poland didn't attack Germany in 1939 although Hitler claimed it did, "despotic megalomaniacs" tend to tell lots of lies. Politicians are not all "DM"s some act with moral responsibility and in the best long term interests of their citizens but cannot avoid going to war.