Torsten Bell

Ilovecheese

Can't people just leave a thread if they are not enjoying it?

Yes, of course, Ilovecheese

but not enjoying it is totally different to being attacked for no reason.

Does anyone ( other than Torsten &Ed Miliband) remember the Ed Stone.
It didn’t go down well, did it. 😉

Allira

He's an enemy of ordinary, hardworking people and of pensioners.
He is more rightwing than many Tories.

That kind of negates GG13's "tax, tax & more tax" doesn't it? Suppose I'll have to read the link to find out about this Torsten Bell person.

He does at least seem to care about child poverty and about the shame of a country like ours needing to have food banks.
I do wish our Government would care more.
I don't know if it is just my Facebook feed but all I ever get from the Labour Party is about immigration, which in my mind is a lot less of a concern than children going hungry.

Can't people just leave a thread if they are not enjoying it?

growstuff

Oreo

And you’ll carry on missing it.

What was the point of your intervention (apart to have a go at PoliticsNerd)?

Well, I do think a few posters have been upset by unwarranted attacks on them over some time.

Sometimes people reach a point where they either have to retaliate or leave the forum.

We are all entitled to contribute without being attacked, within the guidelines.

To say that I am put off the thread, even tho am interested in politics and would have read about TBell and contributed to the discussion.
Since you ask.

Oreo

And you’ll carry on missing it.

What was the point of your intervention (apart to have a go at PoliticsNerd)?

And you’ll carry on missing it.

Oreo

I don’t know why it should be like this on here, can’t we discuss politics without it?

That would be good. Sorry, I missed your contribution to the discussion.

I recall watching that interview a few months ago. Bell used to write a column in the Observer, before he became an MP, so I'm familiarish with his thoughts.

The problem I have with him, is the problem I have with just about every mainstream commentator on economics, and with the story that is promoted by governments of any colour, and by all the political parties.

That is that they continuously perpetrate the myth that taxes are needed to fund spending and any shortfall has to be 'borrowed, by means of bond sales. And that deficits are bad.

While ever MPs in ministerial office in the Treasury hold to that belief nothing will ever change in regard to growth and a more equable distribution of wealth.

Heterodox economist, Prof. Steve Keen (one of the very few economists who predicted the 2008 Global financial Crisis) has an interesting video pointing out that most influential economists promote economic thinking which has been empirically proven to be wrong (in one case, an economist appeared to be ignoring his own research)

Some people might find it interesting. It has very little to do with anything I've just said about taxes and spending (which has also been empirically proved) , but it's interesting to see how evidence is ignored by the ;profession'.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb6HCIVMzu4

(note, he appears to speak incredibly fast but you can adjust the play speed to .75 which makes it sound more normal)

I don’t know why it should be like this on here, can’t we discuss politics without it?

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Lathyrus3

I’m humbly and sincerely asking - what is it he proposes that the Government actually does to improve things.

In practical terms.

Im not really interested in the philosophical rhetoric..
I just really want - This is what we want to achieve and this is how we’re going to do it.

I don't think he's actually proposed anything - not in his capacity as an MP or even adviser to Rachel Reeves.

However, he's worked in public policy in the past and has made various suggestions based on facts. These are now being dragged up.

He's going to get the same treatment as Rachel Reeves. On the one hand he'll be smeared as a neo-liberal. On the other, he'l be smeared as a leftie with a grudge against the elderly. That's what happens when you start from facts and policy rather than watching your back in the politics game. People don't understand policy. They'd rather take their opinions second-hand without looking at first-hand sources.

I have heard of T Bell but didn’t know much about him, was prepared to read about him and join in the thread until I read the way that PN answered posters.
The above answer to Allira is a masterclass in passive aggression.
Neither Allira nor any poster on here is a ‘Mr angry’ and you had no need to ask AI anything as it isn’t relevant to this discussion.
What it is, is a deliberate insult.

I’m humbly and sincerely asking - what is it he proposes that the Government actually does to improve things.

In practical terms.

Im not really interested in the philosophical rhetoric..
I just really want - This is what we want to achieve and this is how we’re going to do it.

Oh dear, well, I'm not a Daily Mail reader so thank you for pointing that out.

Allira

Well, sometimes it's pointless typing out a post which takes some research and time and then Gransnet says Aw Snap and it disappears.

Summaries are on ThisisMoney and other outlets.

"This is Money" is not an unbiassed source. It was originally a spin-off from the Daily Mail and appeals to the same readership. What are the other outlets? I'd rather listen to/read what Bell actually said rather than second hand spin.

TB suggests thet the reason why political discourse feels gloomy is because the country feels gloomy. Why? Because they are having a tough time and they want things sorted. He points out that the old are gloomier than the young despite the economic data that the old are doing relatively better than younger generations. The interviewer then pointed out that TB is arguing against generational wars. TB pointed out that we live as families looking after the young and then being looked after by them. He doesn't think people think in terms of generational wars and said he didn't think they should.

His view was that we do need to understand the changes that have happened. So we do need to understand, that poverty has moved, from in the 1990's being a story of very high child poverty and very high pensioner poverty. Whereas, child poverty has stayed particularly high, especially amongst larger families, with pensioners poverty over the 25 year view. It's come down very significantly. It's about halved (as of 11 months ago). He then explained the reasons.

He went on to say, looking at international comparisons, everywhere is done worse, in general, since the financial crisis amongst advanced economies. If you look at the USA they had seen slightly better growth than us the benefits of which have generally gone to younger people. In the UK we saw weak growth with little going to younger workers.

(I'm taking another break)

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Well, sometimes it's pointless typing out a post which takes some research and time and then Gransnet says Aw Snap and it disappears.

Summaries are on ThisisMoney and other outlets.

Allira

^I prefer to read/hear what he actually says rather than relying on smears and second-hand sources, so anything first-hand would be great. I like to make up my own mind rather than repeating somebody else's opinions.^

Reading various publications and statements he has made is not enough, then?
We have to purchase his book?

Sorry, but no.

He was 'parachuted' in to a safe seat despite having no Welsh connections at all, thus annoying local Labour party members. The Labour leader was obviously keen to have him on board. He seems to have been an extremely powerful force in the Labour party and the last Labour Government since a very young age. Many people will never heard of him, although he is very influential.

No, I'm not suggesting buying his book. However, he has done various interviews, including one with Victoria Derbyshire. He's also written (or co-written) articles for the Resolution Foundation, which are available online for free and without a subscription. I'd be interested to know whether those smearing him have read any of them or just articles about him in publications such as the Telegraph and the Spectator.

The Resolution Foundation is one of the more transparent think tanks and does some good research. Its data is well-researched and reliable. Its recommendations don't find favour with everybody but are generally not coming from an extreme viewpoint.

I knew Bell was parachuted into a safe Labour seat - just as my MP (Kemi Badenoch) was parachuted into a safe Conservative seat. I'm not defending either, but it's not the main reason I dislike my MP. I guess the Swansea constituents will look at his record when he's next up for election.

By the way, I'm no great fan of Torsten Bell. What I dislike is the way people smear politicians based on second-hand opinions without knowing what they've actually said/done. Sadly, there's too much of it.

GrannyGravy13

Just checking a previous thread about this MP and note that I received a snide and rather personal comment from the OP of this one!
😂😂😂

I prefer to read/hear what he actually says rather than relying on smears and second-hand sources, so anything first-hand would be great. I like to make up my own mind rather than repeating somebody else's opinions.

Reading various publications and statements he has made is not enough, then?
We have to purchase his book?

Sorry, but no.

He was 'parachuted' in to a safe seat despite having no Welsh connections at all, thus annoying local Labour party members. The Labour leader was obviously keen to have him on board. He seems to have been an extremely powerful force in the Labour party and the last Labour Government since a very young age. Many people will never heard of him, although he is very influential.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

Been reading about Torsten Bell. I can’t quite believe what I've just read. So this self proclaimed genius from a revered think tank is just proposing higher benefits payments across the board! And taking it from pensions (but not public sector, natch).

Link please to the self-proclamation of genius.