Why do things keep getting worse?

That’s just your opinion, David.

As I said, others think differently and the truth will never be established because the project has been cut short.

MaizieD

I’m not trying to justify it, David, just point out that the money didn’t just disappear off the face of the earth. It all went somewhere.

When HS2 was planned the case was made for it improving productivity by increasing rail capacity. There are arguments for and against which will never be resolved, but it went ahead ostensibly on the strength of that case. As the project has been terminated before completion we will never know whether or not it would have improved productivity.

It is certainly obvious that major contractors have run rings round successive governments in vastly inflating the costs, and objections and unplanned route deviations have also added to costs, but poor government control of major works is an entirely separate issue.

HS2 was a vanity project from day one, as is Heathrow expansion we don’t need more air travel we need less, how anyone justifies air travel while trying to reduce CO2 is a complete mystery.

I’m not trying to justify it, David, just point out that the money didn’t just disappear off the face of the earth. It all went somewhere.

When HS2 was planned the case was made for it improving productivity by increasing rail capacity. There are arguments for and against which will never be resolved, but it went ahead ostensibly on the strength of that case. As the project has been terminated before completion we will never know whether or not it would have improved productivity.

It is certainly obvious that major contractors have run rings round successive governments in vastly inflating the costs, and objections and unplanned route deviations have also added to costs, but poor government control of major works is an entirely separate issue.

“It's given a lot of people a great deal of employment, so some of the money will have circulated in the domestic economy, and contributed to GDP. But was there some excessive profiteering in the companies contracted to do the work?”

Maisie no doubt it is paying the the wages of a lot of construction workers and research workers but it is not productive activity fir the economy when they could be doing more useful work

As for construction companies they are loving it because HS2 is a “cost plus” project, the more add ons, the longer it takes the more money they make. There is a lot of work locally you would expect the sites to be hive of activity, they're not it’s all snails pace

Well, DAR, I have Piketty's book, and I can state categorically that the post WW2 period, up to the 1970s, WRT restraint on wealth and narrowing the inequality, was the best and everything started to go down hill after that. In fact, the French call that period the 'Trente Glorieuses'.

While Piketty doesn't connect the deterioration in equality and the speed at which the wealthy regained what they had lost in that time, and the acceleration in their rate of accumulating more wealth, with the neoliberal economics introduced by Thatcher and Reagan the correlation of the two trends is unmistakeable.

MaizieD

DaisyAnneReturns

MaizieD

We have had a amazing 70 years where things improved for the many in our country. That last 70 years have been an economic anomaly in the course of history.

I would, along with Thomas Pikety, dispute that statement.

We had an amazing post war period but the election of Thatcher in 1979 and her adoption of neoliberal economic ideology brought it to an end. The equality gap, which had narrowed, has been widening and the wealthy have been getting exponentially wealthier ever since while poverty is increasing. 20% of our population living below the poverty line is not a statistic to ignore.

Has Thomas Pikerty been reading my posts? Wow!

I rather think that Stevenson might have been reading Pikety's book. It was, after all, published in 2011. Stevenson has come on the scene, saying similar things, much later.

In a couple of his videos he's mentioned meeting him but I don't know (that's not a negative, I just don't have the information) whether it was one to one or at a group meeting Maizie. I does sound like he has talked with him and he certainly holds him in high esteem. I have seen him use Piketty's graphs on a couple of videos knowing they carry credibility.

Stevenson is interesting in his delight that there are more economists on the internet even if the views are conflicting.

David49

Primrose53

fancythat

Most people wont like what I am going to say and that is part of the problem in my opinion.

Bat tunnel - £100 million.

Many many other schemes like that. Too many to mention.
And the majority of people, on GN at least, thought it was perfectly acceptable.

If money is spent on this type of thing, not so much money left for other things.

Ha ha we had one of those over here. Total waste of money and then it was discovered bats weren’t even using it.

If you added up the amount of money that been spent on
environmental and Heritage activity on HS2 you would be astounded, not to mention delays caused.

The final cost is likely to be £100bn for half a white elephant.

The interesting thing, David, is who was in receipt of the money?

It's given a lot of people a great deal of employment, so some of the money will have circulated in the domestic economy, and contributed to GDP. But was there some excessive profiteering in the companies contracted to do the work?

Primrose53

fancythat

Most people wont like what I am going to say and that is part of the problem in my opinion.

Bat tunnel - £100 million.

Many many other schemes like that. Too many to mention.
And the majority of people, on GN at least, thought it was perfectly acceptable.

If money is spent on this type of thing, not so much money left for other things.

Ha ha we had one of those over here. Total waste of money and then it was discovered bats weren’t even using it.

If you added up the amount of money that been spent on
environmental and Heritage activity on HS2 you would be astounded, not to mention delays caused.

The final cost is likely to be £100bn for half a white elephant.

DaisyAnneReturns

MaizieD

We have had a amazing 70 years where things improved for the many in our country. That last 70 years have been an economic anomaly in the course of history.

I would, along with Thomas Pikety, dispute that statement.

We had an amazing post war period but the election of Thatcher in 1979 and her adoption of neoliberal economic ideology brought it to an end. The equality gap, which had narrowed, has been widening and the wealthy have been getting exponentially wealthier ever since while poverty is increasing. 20% of our population living below the poverty line is not a statistic to ignore.

Has Thomas Pikerty been reading my posts? Wow!

I rather think that Stevenson might have been reading Pikety's book. It was, after all, published in 2011. Stevenson has come on the scene, saying similar things, much later.

Correction. Ours was a bat bridge. Still hopeless and unused by bats.

fancythat

Most people wont like what I am going to say and that is part of the problem in my opinion.

Bat tunnel - £100 million.

Many many other schemes like that. Too many to mention.
And the majority of people, on GN at least, thought it was perfectly acceptable.

If money is spent on this type of thing, not so much money left for other things.

Ha ha we had one of those over here. Total waste of money and then it was discovered bats weren’t even using it.

“We have had a amazing 70 years where things improved for the many in our country. That last 70 years have been an economic anomaly in the course of history.”

Yes, the problem is that things have improved beyond our ability to pay for them, we have had to borrow to pay for, even sacrifice economic growth, to meet the demand for more.

MaizieD

^We have had a amazing 70 years where things improved for the many in our country. That last 70 years have been an economic anomaly in the course of history.^

I would, along with Thomas Pikety, dispute that statement.

We had an amazing post war period but the election of Thatcher in 1979 and her adoption of neoliberal economic ideology brought it to an end. The equality gap, which had narrowed, has been widening and the wealthy have been getting exponentially wealthier ever since while poverty is increasing. 20% of our population living below the poverty line is not a statistic to ignore.

Has Thomas Pikerty been reading my posts? Wow!

Maizie some way back you asked a question and I didn't have time to answer. Really it needs to be addressed to Gary Stevenson so this may help www.youtube.com/watch?v=II1GOhoNpms It's not specifically in answer to your question of course, but you may find some answers.

Otherwise I can only suggest there may be some way to contact him directly. But I'm afraid I don't know what that is.

We have had a amazing 70 years where things improved for the many in our country. That last 70 years have been an economic anomaly in the course of history.

I would, along with Thomas Pikety, dispute that statement.

We had an amazing post war period but the election of Thatcher in 1979 and her adoption of neoliberal economic ideology brought it to an end. The equality gap, which had narrowed, has been widening and the wealthy have been getting exponentially wealthier ever since while poverty is increasing. 20% of our population living below the poverty line is not a statistic to ignore.

'Stop the boats' is such a facile attempt to redirect attention away from the very real problems created in the last 20 years, most of which were created by years of Tory government.

That answer does not even merit a proper response.

In fact Natural England say they never asked for or supported a huge bat cave.

No matter whether they did or didnt.
The issue is that the money got spent on it.

^'There is no evidence that wildlife protections are to blame for planning delays6

Again, not the point.

Allira

Ps nanna8 I'm sure another poster will be along to correct me shortly so watch this thread. 🙂

Thanks for info Allira It is more complicated than I thought. I’m not sure what the offical retirement age is now , it seems to get higher 😀

MaizieD

Training could include paid work, though.

Training always used to include paid work for many, it’s not just about learning new things it’s about learning a new skill.

Our Empire also kept the vast majority of the indigenous populations very poor and we also sent out many young men, not women, not children, to run it.

This was part of the same cycle. The OP asked "Why do things keep getting worse." They are not. They are returning to the pattern of life that has always been much the same.

We have had a amazing 70 years where things improved for the many in our country. That last 70 years have been an economic anomaly in the course of history. How we continue it or whether we can continue the progress made in our lifetime depends, according to Gary Stevenson, on working extreme wealth inequality out of the system.

fancythat

Most people wont like what I am going to say and that is part of the problem in my opinion.

Bat tunnel - £100 million.

Many many other schemes like that. Too many to mention.
And the majority of people, on GN at least, thought it was perfectly acceptable.

If money is spent on this type of thing, not so much money left for other things.

I think there is a real and growing problem in the UK and elsewhere about journalistic standards, conspiracy headlines, social media and our gutter press (tabloids).

It's easy to throw out headlines and simple sounding stories that allow people to grandstand and flounce around saying 'this' is the problem whatever the 'this' happens to be at that moment.

In fact Natural England say they never asked for or supported a huge bat cave. This report from The Bat Conservation Trust with ample explanation and links is one of the best articles available on a simple search. www.bats.org.uk/news/2025/08/once-again-bats-are-blamed-for-britains-planning-woes-but-the-evidence-tells-a-different-story
'There is no evidence that wildlife protections are to blame for planning delays. In fact, the real causes are well-documented: overstretched planning departments and outdated systems. Scapegoating species may grab headlines, but it does nothing to fix the real problems.'

HS2 is the real disaster, one of many similar overpriced, late or abandoned projects embarked on in the UK.

From the BBC "Its size has doubled over time, partly due to the need to accommodate future provision for local rail services," the spokesperson added.
Mr Dennis explained that the structure "originally cost £40m, then some wranglings with East West Rail made it a four-track structure and pushed up the cost". www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9wryxyljglo

And so on, one thing I blame for things getting worse is our appalling education system since Ofsted was invented so that children are not taught anything other than to pass tests and make the teachers look good; then there is privatisation which has led to the demise of, and foreign ownership of, much infrastructure; let's add in the money markets which few understand but which control huge aspects of our financial health; the control of interest rates by the Bank of England; the failure to tax the rich who offload money out of reach of HMRC and Brexit, supporters of which still refuse to offer evidence of any benefits which we have gained set against the massive losses. And then there's AI.....

'Stop the boats' is such a facile attempt to redirect attention away from the very real problems created in the last 20 years, most of which were created by years of Tory government.

TakeThat7

Basically MPs think members of the public don't have worthwhile opinions and don't gather the opinions of the public There should be more chance for the public to vote on decisions

I'm not sure about that!

More referenda? ( referendums?) 🤔
People have not stopped arguing about the result of the one nine years ago.

Basically MPs think members of the public don't have worthwhile opinions and don't gather the opinions of the public There should be more chance for the public to vote on decisions

I think MPs make too many decisions that the public aren't happy about It's like they get the power and do what they want even when the public object I've a good example for this parents don't go around saying I will pick my child's school according to the Ofsted report a lot don't trust the report and your child gets a place at the nearest school to where you live.
I was upset this morning for the sister of head teacher who died following an Ofsted report Not usually having
Itv on I caught a really sad interview
This was on at seven twenty four The interviewer I think he's ed balls he's married to Yvette cooper He was a Labour MP and obviously his wife still is .He was very insensitive and wrong parents find a lot of very minor points are brought up by Ofsted and then ruin a school or childminder For very minor maybe not really true comments a provider can be seen as not being satisfactory As the sister of Ruth Perry tried to get across there should have been a credible independent review system but in place There is nothing independent in place to protect childminders and teachers from the devastating effect of very minor comments or observations being used to justify an assesment being made of not satisfactory Ed Balls tried to say the system is safe inspectors are also human and can be not good at their job Inspectors work should be better assessed and in fairness judgements changed How many people have to die

Training could include paid work, though.