This must be a sad day for England

Gosh, Whitewave, has that ever happened before in history?
Oh yes, in the 1930's, in Germany, when an innocent group of people was picked on as scapegoats.

Bizarrely the populists leaders like Trump and to a lesser extent Farage, would, in normal times be the epitome of the elite. So one really does have to question their real motives.

So then we have to wonder whether populism does in fact represent the sovereign will of the people or just a group of people in society feeling disaffected and ignored, who go on to identify a minority as the enemy rather than the elite as was first argued.

Whitewavemark2

I can understand the populist movement when it claims to be anchored in the sovereign will of the people, but it is when it begins to identify minority groups in society as the “enemy” rather than the establishment which they argue caused the problem, I begin to have a real issue.

Agree.
And of course this serves the government well, Tory and Labour, inasmuch as their glaring incompetencies are hiding behind a group of powerless people. Certainly nobody is talking about child poverty, a lack of public services, the cost of living crisis, looming heat poverty, homelessness etc., whilst we are talking about all this Yaxley Lennon hoohah.

I can understand the populist movement when it claims to be anchored in the sovereign will of the people, but it is when it begins to identify minority groups in society as the “enemy” rather than the establishment which they argue caused the problem, I begin to have a real issue.

Peacefully demonstrating is one thing MOnica, it is still our right to do, but that was a disgrace yesterday. Dozens of Police officers attacked and harmed? Some family day out that was.

Politics has become the playground for people deprived of their bread and circuses- maybe we should bring back the circus maximus- now there's a tradition started by immigrants.

Of course I guess if we want to live in a democracy, we have to accept it with all its vagaries.

The question for me is - does populism give us more or less democracy, as I am watching Trump and listening to various rhetoric which makes me feel very uneasy.

26 police officers injured, 4 seriously, 25 arrests but police say this is just the start. A protest march organised by Tommy Robinson and his thugs was never going to be a friendly trouble free day out with the family. This country has it's problems but anyone who thinks that people like TR and his ilk will make a difference for the good is IMO naive. He spreads hate and division using immigration as his scapegoat of choice. His tactics are those of a fascist playbook and his presence frightens and sickens me.

26 police officers injured so now on sick leave taking them off the streets.

1500 people on the streets of London yesterday and incited to violence by Tommy Robinson and Elon Musk.
Britain at its worst.

MayBee70

Can’t just blame this government. It worked with previous Conservative governments and the same tactic was used by Farage for Brexit. Unfortunately people have been brainwashed into thinking the solution to everything is a ‘protest vote’ even though they don’t actually know what the alternative might be.

I think this is an arrogant assumption. people are not brainwashed, if they are then among the brainwashed are all of us, we are not superior to all those on these demonstrations.

People are demonstrating because they are fed up with governments that ignore them and their concerns in pursuit of - well, what? Whatever it is - it isn't what people want.

Robinson and Farage have risen as leaders from the many ordinary people who are fed up with the current situation. If people were happy with the governance of this country as it is now, these people would not have come to promenance.

People may not be clear on what the alternative is, but what they do know is that they are very sure it is not what they are getting now.

Patronising and looking down on ordinary people and pretending that you (or I are somehow a cut above the rest and know so much better than them, is what got us into this mess in the first place. Continuing it only makes the situation worse.

Assistant Commissioner Twist said officers had suffered broken teeth, concussion, a prolapsed disc, a head injury and a possible broken nose.
"The 25 arrests we have made so far is just the start," he added as the Met vowed to identify those involved in disorder.

Yes disgusting. We are lucky to have a police force that, on the whole, do a good job of protecting us. We could have one that reports to an extremist government, then who would be safe?

It is an interesting phenomenon and I’ve been thinking and reading about how this move towards populism has occurred.

I think really that the initial push was at the time of the financial crash in 2008 which affected both the USA and Europe in equal measure. Prior to that globalisation had been - and still is the driver of the world economy which has seen a structural change in the system based on the movement of goods, capital and labour.

However post 2008, what happened I think is that the crash undermined trust in ability of the establishment to run the economy. Faith in the “experts” like the bankers, economists and politicians was sorely tried - who was going to believe the experts now?

Prior to the crash however the west and the U.K. and USA in particular had a number of foreign policy set backs over Iraq and Libya which did huge damage to the Middle East and later we had Afghanistan.

But really I think that the real driver behind this move towards populism has to be the global economy. So whilst it brought huge growth and prosperity to the world in general, for some and the west in particular where capitalism is more “mature” what has happened - predicted by some economist was that wealth became highly concentrated, middle class living standards stagnated, and the working class found itself in competition with cheap labour arriving from overseas.

This crises was compounded by the establishment continuing to govern with neo-liberal policies - a broken system which brought the U.K. a decade and more of austerity, hitting the working class even more - thus skewing the balance even more away from the working class and towards capital. Is it any wonder there has been a backlash towards populism?

Bottles thrown. Police officers injured. Disgraceful.

Oh I for one am not blaming this particular government anymore than others.

Can’t just blame this government. It worked with previous Conservative governments and the same tactic was used by Farage for Brexit. Unfortunately people have been brainwashed into thinking the solution to everything is a ‘protest vote’ even though they don’t actually know what the alternative might be.

Yes, how could it be. Is it because people have already been divided. And ignored.
Identity politics have divided people into groups based solely on one aspect of their identity. Don't be surprised when people organise within those separate groups.

MayBee70

The government are having to deal with Reform, a party whose main means of getting into power is to divide the country as much as possible.

And how is that possible, I wonder? 🤔

The government are having to deal with Reform, a party whose main means of getting into power is to divide the country as much as possible.

MaizieD

winterwhite

Nowhere here is it said what the protest/march is actually About.

People are claiming that it was about Uniting the UK. Judging from posts on here I don't think it's achieved its objective.

No, it hasn't.

But neither has the Government.

M0nica

The question no one is asking is why Tommy Robinson is attracting so much support, or indeed why Nigel Farage and Reform get so much support.

Its easy peasy jackaneasy to get all upset and wild-eyed because all these events are happenng, anyone can do thaat.

The question people should beasking and thinking about, and perhaps accepting some uncomfortable truths is why people like Tommy Robinson and Nigel Farage attract so much support.

The answer is quite straightforward. Over the last few decades, politics and government has slipped into the handsof an urban intellectual elite, from a variety of backgrounds, who think themselves superior to all of us, who believe they know what we ought to want better than we do and are determined to give us what they want to give us, to dismiss the fears and concerns of what they would conisider the lumpen prolatariat.

This knd of thing goes on for so long then the despised common people take over, and since those in charge refuse to listen they look to leaders who are articulate how they feel, what they want in life and what sort of society they want to live in.

This society may well contain elelments that we do not like and make us put our hands to our face in horror. But why should we have everything our way and ignore those who disagree with us because they are less well educated and not as articulate.

This how most revolutions start. It is how the French Revolution started, and the unsuccessful risings in Hungary and Czechoslovakia in 1956 and 1968 and the successful overthrow of the USSR in 1991.

It is now happening in Western Europe and is advanced in Eastern Europe, now it is the British turn. It is up to the main stream parties to listen to those deserting them for the extreme right, listen to them and act on their deep concerns and not just dismiss them as Gordeon Brown did when he called a Labour supporter who had challenged him over the economy and immigration a "bigoted woman".

Yes, M0nica

When politicians lose touch with how ordinary people in the country live, what their worries are, become aloof and quite divorced from the reality of what life is like for many, then they risk losing any support and that is when more extreme groups begin to take over.

“There were “no significant arrests” made after thousands took to central London for a People’s Vote march, police said.
A spokeswoman for the Metropolitan Police has confirmed there were no significant arrests made during the day of the large march.”
No arrests on the people’s vote march I went on in 2018. No litter either…

Primrose53

Only 9 arrests today.

Notting Hill Carnival - 400 arrests

Palestine Action - 900 arrests

Wait a minute

Todays march, 25 arrests in one day according to the BBC attendance estimated between 100,000 - 150,000

The Met said 25 people had been arrested for a range of offences in what it described as "wholly unacceptable" violence.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwydezxl0xlo

Notting Hill Carnival. 140 arrests Held over 3 days estimated attendance 2 million people 13 times more people than on today's march That makes the number of arrests about 10 per 150,000 people, fewer than half the number of today's arrests

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c754y4k3l35o

Palestine Protests: how many days of protests does this -made up?-- figure cover?

You have to compare like with like. And use the official figures, not made up ones.

M0nica

growstuff

MOnica What you have described is exactly the narrative TR et al would love people to believe. Dig a bit deeper - it's not 100% true - and ignores the effect of the big elephant in the room - Brexit.

Is Brexit an elephant in the room? whether it is elephant or mouse is irrelevant it is just part of the manifestation of the enormous gulf between those who run the country and ordinary people.

TR has got nothing to do with forming the way people think. It is the other way round. He has come to the fore because of peoples disaffection with the political process and how it runs rough shod over them. Like Farage, he has exploited it.

The answer is for those in power to listen to what is being said, and to accept how out of touch they are and actually accept that they have to change, that they do have to abandon some of their treasured projects because the people who vote for governments do not like them or want them. They actually have to listen to Farage, look at what makes people want to vote Reform and accept that some of their cherished, aims, probably ones that I would like, are just not acceptable to many in this country

If the push is for a one world gov. (and I think it is quite obvious by now it is), a little ground will be ceded to placate the worried working classes, but with digital id, banking, health etc all on the agenda to complete this goal, I don't think a march will break their resolve.

Sadiq Khan + Met Police have purchased Israeli armoured war vehicles to deploy on the streets of London.

That seems odd unless you see the need to use them in the future.

Ergo it seems quite straight forward, agree with loss of freedoms or protest and face police in SandCats on our streets.

theworriedwell

I think you missed the maths. More people arrested than police assaulted at one event, the opposite at the other event. Surely there should be st least as many arrested as assaults on the police or is part of the culture they are celebrating assaulting the police.

I may be biased as Ive been my husband's carer for over 35 years due to injuries on duty.

Don't castigate yourself for you opinion. Perfectly acceptable from your perspective.

Yes I didn't explain myself properly, 100 members of the public arrested before the carnival, because they posed a significant danger to the public. The Police seized 11 fire arms and 40 knives etc. Some Police assaulted during raids.

Please ignore my typing skills, which have reached an all time low - broken arm one side, arthritic wrist and thumb the other, sticky keyboard because I knocked orange juice over it! Woe is me