Why the UK's Economy is Awful

I think its short-sighted to blame Thatcher, however much you hate her, for the decline of manufacturing and rust belt industries. The facts are that competition from mainly Chinese manufacturing was impossible to beat on price and delivery and still is. The changing need for energy largely makes coal redundant. Steel is uneconomic but may have to subsidised for strategic reasons. And some poor investment decisions were taken by both Tories and Labour: the refusal to invest in Intel the chipmaker resulted in the loss of a key nascent industry to the States.

I find this topic very interesting! As a Northern born person, I agree that Mrs Thatcher’s policies caused a great deal of harm. There are areas all around the country where the closure of mines and other major industries (Steel, Ship Building etc.) destroyed whole communities, some of which have never recovered. While the opportunity for Council tenants to buy their rented homes was a blessing to many, it has deprived many others of Social Housing - a need which in many places isn’t being addressed at all, because Local Authorities are near Bankruptcy!
I also believe that Thatcherism encouraged selfishness in all it’s forms, and that “consideration for others” became viewed as a weakness!
I live in a “deprived” area of the North East currently, but I love it here! The people are (mostly) great, the scenery is heavenly, and I wish I could afford to buy a house here (I’m on the coast, and too old to get a Mortgage).

“In addition, some properties in Kensington & Chelsea have a garden square levy which can add an average of £300 to £400 to the charge. In the end, the comparative band D charges arent so very different.”

Thank you Paynesgrey for that justification for Londoner’s paying less Council Tax, the fact remains that they do pay less. Maybe if Birmingham introduced a Congestion Charge and high Emission zone they wouldn’t be bankrupt

I don’t I’ve in Brum I just used it as a comparitive city.

If it’s true that The EU has increased steel tariffs then retaliation should be to EU built cars that will really hurt the EU.

The real problem is China flooding EU and UK with subsidized goods

You are so right escaped The system works on much the same basis as wealth inequality. If your region got money in the past you tend to get more. It really doesn't matter how good Councils are in poorer areas they cannot compete if goverment focuses on return per £. If you have already received additional funds via government, to improve your infrastructure for example, you are already in a better position.

DaisyAnneReturns

The problem isn't "Londoners" it's the system which distributes goverment money to the regions that is in question.

Exactly DaisyAnneReturns.
Individuals who live in a particular location can't be held responsible for the success or demise of that place. It's far more complicated. Sometimes, from the way things are presented, you'd think it's all the fault of the average London city dweller - when they actually have real struggles of their own along the way.

The problem isn't "Londoners" it's the system which distributes goverment money to the regions that is in question.

was in “discussions” with both Brussels and Washington.
“I think our position in relation to our steel industry is one of strong support as you saw from Scunthorpe and Port Talbot,” he said.
The industry minister, Chris McDonald, said the government was seeking “urgent clarification of the impact of this move on the UK” and hinted that it could take retaliatory action.
“We continue to explore stronger trade measures to protect UK steel producers from unfair behaviours,” he said.
British sources said that the UK imported 3.7 million tonnes of steel from the EU and that this could be subject to retaliatory tariffs. “The UK government will need to stand up for our industry,” one said.
The UK exported 1.9 million tonnes of steel to the EU in 2024.
The industry as a whole, for both domestic and foreign markets, produced only 4 million tonnes of steel last year.
Maros Sefcovic, the EU's trade commissioner and lead negotiator with Britain, warned that European steel production had gone in steep decline, with 30,000 jobs lost since 2018 while Asian producers expanded while closing off their own markets and subsidising their industries.
“We must act decisively to defend Europe's interests,” he said, acknowledging that the proposals would be difficult for the UK. “Seeing the situation, there was no alternative.”
He said he was consulting with the UK but under WTO rules had to treat British steelmakers in the same way as Asian or American producers. “We will negotiate new quotas in good faith with our close partners”
Stéphane Séjourné, the French EU industry commissioner, an ally of President Macron who has pressed for the measures, said the tariffs were needed to “save European industry”. “This is the re-industrialisation of Europe,” Séjourné said. “The European steel industry was on the verge of collapse — we are protecting it.”
An EU official dismissed British claims that the change was in breach of the post-Brexit Trade and Co-operation agreement, saying that it had been made under emergency “safeguard” clauses. “The message to the UK is we have no other choice. We are in big trouble because of this problem,” they said. “We do not even have to notify them.”
From todays Times…

This isn’t helping, is it? ie theelephantinthe room
“British steel faces 'disaster' as EU imposes 50% tariffs
The European Union says it has no choice but to protect its own industry from a glut of cheap Asian steel diverted to the continent by President Trump's tariffs

Bruno Waterfield, Brussels | Oliver Wright, Policy Editor | Tom Saunders, Trade Reporter
The British steel industry faces the “biggest crisis” in its history after the European Union said it had “no choice” but to hit the UK with 50 per cent tariffs.
In a blow for Sir Keir Starmer's “reset” with Brussels, the European Commission said it would fast-track plans to halve the amount of steel that can be imported tax-free into the bloc. At the same time, it will increase its tariff rate from 25 to 50 per cent to protect the European steel industry.
The UK exports 78 per cent of its steel to the EU and the industry warned that the change would “decimate” the UK's manufacturing base which is already struggling with the American tariffs and global oversupply.
A senior EU official was unrepentant, however, saying that the bloc needed to protect European steelmakers despite the impact
The British steel industry is already struggling against global oversupply
TIMES PHOTOGRAPHER JAMES GLOSSOP

on Britain.
“My dear UK friends, you have to understand that we have no choice but to limit the total volumes of imports that come into the EU, so this is the logic that we apply clearly,” they said. “Not acting could result in potentially fatal effects for us.”
Gareth Stace, director-general of the trade body UK Steel, said the industry was facing a “disaster”.
He said: “This is perhaps the biggest crisis the UK steel industry has ever faced. The UK government

David49

“Taxes and council tax paid by Londoners are far in excess of elsewhere simply by being higher wages and far more in numbers.”

That’s simply not true

Council Tax Kensington Band D £1450
Council Tax Birmingham City Band D £2200
Other Bands similar differences

So many blatant inaccuracies on this site.

London council tax is lower in some boroughs because those boroughs generate significant revenue from other sources such as business rates, parking charges, and tourist income, which subsidizes residents' costs. These areas often benefit from their high population density and commercial activity, reducing the need to raise as much council tax from individual households.

Band D council tax for 2025/26 for Kensington & Chelsea is £1,569.46 (not £1450.00) and Birmingham City £2237.00 - but you cannot compare like with like as bands are based on capital valuations which are much higher is London - and were so when the last revaluaton was done.

In addition, some properties in Kensington & Chelsea have a garden square levy which can add an average of £300 to £400 to the charge. In the end, the comparative band D charges arent so very different.

www.rbkc.gov.uk/council-tax/guide-council-tax-benefits-and-business-rates/your-council-tax-and-business-rates-2025-2026-and-our-performance-and-spending-plans/council-tax-2025-2026

Furthermore, the smallest, least expensive apartment in Kensington & Chelsea is likely to be in band D or much higher. Many one-bedroomed apartments in K&C are in band G where the charge for 2025/26 is £2,615.77 without a garden square levy. The smallest, least expensive flat in Birmingham is likely to be in band A, B or C.

A band D property in Birmingham is more likely to be a house accommodating more people needing more services e.g. children’s services which, along with adult social care, are the the two biggest costs for local councils.

Government figures for 2024 show there were 27 million properties on the Council Tax list. In England, 24% of all properties are in Band A, over 6 million properties. That’s why poorer places with lower property values pay proportionately more tax. There aren’t the significant other revenues to balance things out.

Blackpool has often been cited in comparisons with London. A band A property in Blackpool would be charged £1594.81 for 2025/26 so slightly more than a band D in Kensington & Chelsea without a garden square levy.

It’s a flawed system which should never have been based on capital valuations (often flawed in themselves) as they don’t reflect income. People rioted at the notion of a poll tax so what would now be a fairer way without assuming that all London residents are wealthy or all people outside London are poorer?

MadeInYorkshire I have PM’d you.

“Taxes and council tax paid by Londoners are far in excess of elsewhere simply by being higher wages and far more in numbers.”

That’s simply not true

Council Tax Kensington Band D £1450
Council Tax Birmingham City Band D £2200
Other Bands similar differences

So many blatant inaccuracies on this site.

Tory policies including Brexit are certainly the reason for the poor state of the British economy. Countries such as France, Italy , Germany can still manufacture their own cars, trains, heavy machinery etc since their government supports manufacturing . Concentrating on financial services meant the wealth of the country has become centralised, and that isn't doing so well since the B word.

J52

*MadeInYorkshire*, I also was a student in Cheltenham, a few years before you and stayed on to work. I remember the damp basement flats, described as Garden Flats! After all it was Cheltenham. 😂

Oh brilliant! Yes a friend had a 'Garden Flat', it looked gorgeous on the outside, but inside, oooh it was chilly in there!

I was in one of the big houses in Suffolk Square - big sash windows that didn't move but had draughts all round! I did ground floor one year and middle floor the next year. My last year though, 3 of us were honoured to get a flat owned by the parents of one of our lecturers who used it only during the summer as they came from abroad - it had central heating, a washing machine and a phone entry system!! Oh it was posh, and the chap upstairs had a Ferrari!

Did you do the HCIM course?

MadeInYorkshire, I also was a student in Cheltenham, a few years before you and stayed on to work. I remember the damp basement flats, described as Garden Flats! After all it was Cheltenham. 😂

petra

If you really really want to know where the money goes ( and not told by Americans) watch The Spiders Web Britains second Empire on Netflix.
Be prepared to be very angry 🤬

Thanks, I'll have a look at that!

I'm in agreement that London and the SE has had the lions share, but things are changing. However, I think there's been dodgy dealings for example with these 'freeports' and I still don't really know what they are all about?

Thatcher decimated my home town of Doncaster. I left to go to college in Cheltenham in 1980, and remember coming back in the holidays to a town where people were aimlessly wandering about and there was so much litter, I don't really know why that was? 'Donny' is now full of call centres built on the outskirts where our railway engineering plants and other industries were. On the other side, we had a huge ICI, and International Harvesters to name a couple - now all gone and replaced by out of town shopping centres and car sales.

Cheltenham of course was completely different; affluent in comparison with beautiful buildings - I lived in one, a huge Georgian house that had been converted into flats which were all freezing cold and damp inside, but the outside was immaculate! We watched 'Butterflies' being filmed in one of the streets around the back of the college which was fun. Doncaster of course had 'Open all Hours' filmed in the back to back streets in salubrious Balby.

I now live near Swindon, which I've always felt was a bit of a dump, but now it's dreadful. The town centre has been left with Primark and H&M, hairdressers you can just call in at, banks (not as many), a £ shop, cafes and I think that's about it? Debenhams, M&S, BHS all long gone. The centre is dead ... BUT they have just spent £33m on a beautiful 'Bus Boulevard'. It opened last month, and whoever planned it hadn't a clue! The buses cannot get past each other to get to their stand, are queuing across the traffic lights trying to get in and holding up traffic trying to get elsewhere. The local bus company that's been in the area for 80 years, has no stand at all! They do coach holidays and day trips, so pensioners get off the bus in the boulevard and then have a trek to get to their holiday coach! The place is full of litter and all the plants have already been trodden down.

They have a Grade 2 listed Swimming pool with iconic dome, which has been sold & is being demolished to put in 700 flats with little parking; the Council seems to be totally ignoring local feeling about it. I hadn't been to the town for about 2 years - the spaces along the roads in have all been filled with flats, boxes that look horrid. It now seems that they want to extend the canal - I can imagine it now, cafes along the banks with even more flats above. But it crosses a major road in, and I think that they are going to make it difficult for cars. Parking there is very expensive and they've put loading restrictions on the double yellow lines particularly around the big health centre so that the disabled can no longer park there - I got a ticket as hadn't noticed them as hadn't been there for some time! Many disabled people have said that they can no longer access it as the car parks aren't close enough. I am one now. The theatre is going to be demolished for housing it seems too, again no parking spaces. They want people to leave their cars and use the marvellous bus boulevard - but what s there to come for now? Nothing! But it is being reported on that a few very run down areas will be getting a large cash injection for redevelopment, but again, there's another couple of areas needing help will get nothing?

Our hospital was finished a couple of years before I came to the area - it was built SMALLER than the one it replaced! Housing has been built all around Swindon and the villages are shortly going to be joining up with the town to the south east. Hundreds of thousands of new houses, many several stories high with insufficient parking, and the hospital is too small! They are building these houses with no infrastructure - no GP surgeries, shops, schools etc Even the bigger houses have insufficient parking - a 4 bed house could potentially house a family with 3 or 4 children. Once those children become teens there could be a car for dad, one for mum, and one for each teen, yet the house will only have 2 spaces, if they are lucky! My friend has moved to a half a million pound house that has parking on a drive that 2 people cannot get out of the car as it's between their house and the one next door. I cannot get out in it so have to park in the road. Most of the houses built today have insufficient parking. They are trying to get us out of our cars but don't provide the means of getting to places except if you are in London! We can't even get to our next town unless we go to Swindon first!

My town has beautiful old buildings that are being ruined by heavy traffic, that is trying to get either north south, or east west on major roads that were built for horses and cats! Can we have a bypass? Apparently not ...

To be honest I'm what people would call a 'conspiracy theorist', and I do believe that our government, and the ones previously, mean us harm. This lot are Fabians, and their policies do sound innocuous -
. greater equality of power, wealth and opportunity
. the value of collective action and public service
. an accountable, tolerant and active democracy
citizenship, liberty and human rights
. sustainable development
. multilateral international cooperation

But, I also believe that those at the head of government have sold their souls, and us out to Davos, and are doing the bidding of the UN/WEF, taking us down the route of communism having tried to strip us of our national identity, ensured a lack of healthcare having de-skilled and defunded the NHS, brought public services to their knees, and brought in hundreds of thousands of young fit Muslim men, to confuse, stress and more importantly DIVIDE us so that the 99% don't unite to stop it. I believe the endgame is Digital ID - they will say 'it's for your safety', it's 'for the sake of public health, to get a job', it 'will stop the boats', but non of that is true - it is so that everything that we say or do will be controlled by the state. Noticed all the odd looking street lamps going up? It must not happen ...

Sorry that was a huge rant!

^So, we've had a go at boat people, legal and illegal migrants, "foreigners" who have obtained citizenship - and now it's time to have a go at Londoners.

This is not about having a go at Londoners. It's about the growth of inequality, in more than one 'advanced economy', and the concentration of wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people. And about an economic system which enables it.

If we don't change our economic system nothing will change.

Mind you. I did predict that this attempt to look at a structural problem objectively would turn into folks looking at it from a personal perspective...

So, we've had a go at boat people, legal and illegal migrants, "foreigners" who have obtained citizenship - and now it's time to have a go at Londoners.

I was born in London and have moved to various places during my lifetime. For the last 36 years I have lived in East London. When we purchased here it was a very deprived area. It has changed but there are still significant numbers of people who are not at all well off. That can be said for most areas in London - even places like Kensington and Chelsea have their pockets of deprivation.

So, yes, London does have very rich people - many who purchase flats in the centre of London to which they return for shopping expeditions. But there are also many people who work hard and earn very little. And our cost of living is significantly higher than many other parts of the country, so to live on a low income is very much harder here.

Thatcher was a disaster for this country - encouraging privatisation at knock-down prices in order to achieve a "shareholder democracy". It has been reported that the nation of share-owning households hasn't materialised. Individual private investors have declined from over 50 per cent of UK share value in the mid-1960s to less than 14 per cent today. Many of the council houses that were sold to their occupants at considerably reduced prices are now back in the hands of landlords charging extortionate rents (and in London people can easily pay £1,800 a month for a modest property).

Now ....... who shall we have a go at next?

DoodleDog
It’s not just house prices that are affected.
There once was a lovely town called Leigh on Sea. I married /lived/ had my daughter there.
Then in ( or about) 2010 house prices in London shot up.
All the wannabes who knew the price of everything and the value of nothing realised they would only be an hour away from London by train.
They ruined it😡
Silly, I know but I still get rattled when I have to go there.

DaisyAnneReturns

I do like this research into the video. Did anyone elses opinion move a little at finding it was Canadian rather than American?

This is where they seem to get/hold their information sources.
pastebin.com/Pv2PAbaz

We are all biased. Shouldn't the first thought be to question our own before attacking others?

There is quite a list of sources/references there - but as ever, it is all about how these are interpreted isn't it? And the authors have chosen examples that support their arguments of course.

I'm not wanting to add to the current 'pile-on' about how 'Britain is broken'. It contributes to social unrest and the rise of populist politics. There are political groups with a vested interest in persuading us that everything is going badly and that we need new parties etc to change and fix it all.

For background, relative inequality has also increased significantly elsewhere - eg the USA with an big rise in the wealthiest group. There has been a global rise in the number of very wealthy people. However, there has also been a global reduction in absolute poverty. The Gini coefficient measures relative poverty, so an increase in the proportion of very wealthy people will create a statistical increase in poverty.

I agree that there are some long run issues, with origins way back in the 20th century. BBC Sounds has had a good recent series of The History Podcast called The Invisible Hand which delved into these, with David Dimbleby narrating. www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m00298t2

This has impacted on economic growth, notably UK productivity, which has been below that of other OECD countries for decades. Coupled with the massive increase in national debt over the past 15/20 years, the UK does have some long run economic problems that need to be addressed for its longer term economic health. Low investment in physical infrastrucure (coupled with a poor track record in delivering large infrastructure projects); in skills training; and in research and development are all major contributors to this problem.

But my main issue with contemporary politics is the lack of thinking about solutions - even the mavericks like Dominic Cummins, who seem to be original thinkers simply produce long analyses of the problems, and talk about the need for new systems and new approaches, without ever coming near to generating new ideas for how the increasingly complex problems the UK and the world are facing might be tackled.

I listened to a great BBC programme recently fronted by a paediatrician, Dr Guddi Singh (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002k384). The first episode is about the early years and she was in Hartlepool, talking to health and education professionals, voluntary service providers and parents. They are already doing lots of great stuff, but all were talking about the need for a more joined up approach. I have been hearing people talk about this through out my 50 year career in the public sector - but we seem no nearer to achieving this than ever.

Personally, I would like to see a reduction in central government control and a major revivial of local/regional government. Back in the 1970's, John Redcliffe-Maud was commissioned to examine the structure of UK local government and look at how it could meet the challenges of the late 20th century. He proposed a radical change with the creation of around 50 single tier authorities across Englad and Wales. He was a Tory Minister, but the plan met with horror and was ignored by the Conservative Government who thought that their support base would disappear with the loss of shire counties.

Stronger local government would free central government up to concentrate on national issues and re-enfranchise local communities and voters. We can see this working well with the 'new' mayoral arrangements in cities like Birmingham and Manchester (- of course, they have a long history of strong civic leadership.) David Cameron has talked about his regret at being so quick to dismantle the regional development agencies that Labour created, and admitted that he didn't really understand the value of what they did. This would also help to raise the profile of urban areas outside of London, which could perhaps, in time, regain the economic and cultural profiles that they enjoyed in the past, so that Britain is seen externally as much more than just London.

(PS I love these more considered and well informed discussions in Gransnet - there is such a wealth of knowledge and experience here. I keep thinking that we ought to be able to do more with it.)

UK is slowly going down the toilet!

keepingquiet

sazz1

Sometimes I wish Mrs thatcher was in power. If anyone could sort out the illegal immigration boats it would be her. Could imagine her standing on the beaches and ordering them to row back to France lolol

What? She has been dead 12 years- she died in the Ritz Hotel in London where she lived!

However, she was strongly pro-European and the idea of Brexit would have been anathema to her...

It is Thatcher who is the cause of our problems. As I have said over and over again.

She introduced the economic strategy which Britain and a greater part of the 'Western World' has been following ever since. It is no coincidence that populism is 'winning' all over Europe and in the Americas. Neoliberal economic policy has concentrated wealth in the hands of a few and has left the rest of the populations poor and disadvantaged.

When governments of any colour follow the same economic theory, no difference between the right, the centre or the left, and people feel no improvement in their lives, whichever they vote for, then they are going to go for the simplistic populist answer...

From what I read about France, rural areas outside the major cities, particularly Paris feel similarly disadvantaged.

FranP

The world is in economic crisis. We are consuming more than we need

I think that the point of this thread is that SOME people are consuming more than they need while a significant percentage of the population (20%) is barely existing. No overconsumption of resources there.

To answer the question in the OP I'd say that

1) it isn't so much London that is appropriating the nation's wealth as it is the City of London, the financial centre which is like an independent state, where the Monarch, and therefore the British constitution, has no authority. (Just watch 'The Spider's Web')

2) It isn't just 'foreigners', it is any wealthy person. Though, indeed, Britain has been sold off to foreigners for decades.

sazz1

Sometimes I wish Mrs thatcher was in power. If anyone could sort out the illegal immigration boats it would be her. Could imagine her standing on the beaches and ordering them to row back to France lolol

What? She has been dead 12 years- she died in the Ritz Hotel in London where she lived!

However, she was strongly pro-European and the idea of Brexit would have been anathema to her...