Breaking news, midnight - Peace in the Middle East?

News from Israel - funerals taking place.

The bereaved who have taken back the bodies of their sons, fathers and husbands have now been able to finally put them to rest, whilst others have their agony prolonged as they wait for their remains. The last female hostages body has been returned.

Israeli media is reporting from the market places in Israel and how people are daring to hope for peace, although others fear civil strife in Israel which is so badly divided.
Popular beaches and meeting places are beginning to open for business.

The fallout from Oct. 7th continues with an IDF top military man vowing to probe into the disaster resulting from security failures, together with the whole conduct if the 2 year war.

I'm not sure how I've ended up on here, instead of on the hostages thread, though discussions obviously overlap.

It's difficult to understand why, when both want the same kind of things, that they take very different paths to reach this end. With tragic consequences. They both use religion in the extreme to support their war.

For me, however, I cannot get over Hamas not returning hostages, alive or dead, in week one. They can't possibly argue religious beliefs are justified here.

theworriedwell

ronib

There are protocols for returning war dead as defined in the Geneva Convention.

We are still waiting for all the British dead from WWII to be returned, some still being found. These things can take time.

I can certainly attest to that one - as my mother made it very clear her elder "brother" (ie one of her uncles in the event) never did reappear after the 2nd World War. He was in charge of a plane that went "missing presumed killed off the coast of Holland" she said.

She had reservations about even asking - though I told her I was picking up that the Dutch government is very helpful to people in those circumstances and would do what they could to help her.

growstuff

theworriedwell

Allira I suppose there are many possibilities, one family has enough money to buy food, one mother produces lots of milk and another doesn't and can't get formula. Different area might have had better access to aid than others. The horrific thought is you have two children and enough food for both to slowly starve but enough to feed one adequately, I can't bear the thought but maybe it could come down to that. Maybe the Hamas membership is another or you have a husband who can fight his way through to get the aid while another husband is ill or injured and can't fight to get enough.

The fact is some children are clearly starving, some children are amputees and some will have other illnesses that they can only get treated outside Gaza. They are all innocent children and God help them.

Another possibility is that clans and armed militia were looting some of the supplies. The lack of journalism from within Gaza means it's quite difficult to know everything which has been going on.

Very true - it is indeed making it extremely difficult to have seen what was happening - because they were murdering all the journalists. They even murdered one after the ceasefire had been declared. Certainly THE most extreme censorship one can get is to deliberately murder darn nearly every journalist. Journalists as a group deserve a medal for carrying on trying to do their job under the worst possible conditions ever - ie risking their life and knowing for a fact those-that-run-Palestine are deliberately out to murder them.

escaped

Sounds kind of similar then - that both Muslims and Jews show respect for their dead and want burials done properly.
(Yet they are miles apart in life.)

Don't forget that historically both Judaism and Islam originate from the same part of the world. That's why their food customs (eg method of slaughter, no pork) are quite similar. Female Muslim head coverings and Orthodox Jewish hair and head-covering customs for married women aren't that dissimilar either.

A 10th century Arab writer, Ahmad ibn Fadlān, travelled to Europe and described the customs of the Volga Vikings (Rus'). He was horrified that Europeans burnt their dead.

Sounds kind of similar then - that both Muslims and Jews show respect for their dead and want burials done properly.
(Yet they are miles apart in life.)

I don't know about Palestinian burials specifically, but I know that Muslims attach quite a lot of importance to the correct form of burial. Burials are supposed to take place quickly after death, so there is no delay in reaching the afterlife. Practically, it stops decomposition before burial. Bodies should be bathed and shrouded and be placed on their right side facing Mecca. There are set periods for mourning, but I don't suppose that can happen if there's no body, so relatives are in a kind of limbo.

I am relatively familiar with Jewish law which decrees that a proper burial of the body should be carried out as an act of love, so I can understand the importance of getting the dead hostages returned as soon as possible. The problem is that there isn't a quick practical solution. I agree the remains may well be irretrievable in the short term, if ever.

Out of interest, does anyone know how much importance the Palestinian people attach to burials of their dead?

Allira

theworriedwell

CariadAgain

Yep...it is indeed very sad to see young children like that.

The bit that gets me most is those photos of children with absolutely stick thin limbs, ribs showing and very "old" eyes that have seen far too much.

I don't think I can watch the news anymore. Those poor children.

Yet other children look fit, well and even happy, despite all? Children can be so resilient!

Why? Are their family members of Hamas in receipt of food?

Are the children who look so starved those who need medical attention for other reasons?
The photo of child who looked so heartbreakingly emaciated and ill, which went around the world, was photoshopped to exclude his little brother, who appeared in the unedited version, not looking starved.

Who was receiving the food aid that does get through?

I don't know the answer, just pondering.

Allia
You’re not wrong. There has been many AI generated photos.
But there has also been lies relating to children who genuinely appear starving but with genuine reason.
This poor little soul was held up as one such case.
She has Intestinal Malobsotion.

www.camera.org/article/no-known-accountability-afp-ignores-illness-of-skeletal-child-mariam-dawwa/

growstuff

theworriedwell

Allira I suppose there are many possibilities, one family has enough money to buy food, one mother produces lots of milk and another doesn't and can't get formula. Different area might have had better access to aid than others. The horrific thought is you have two children and enough food for both to slowly starve but enough to feed one adequately, I can't bear the thought but maybe it could come down to that. Maybe the Hamas membership is another or you have a husband who can fight his way through to get the aid while another husband is ill or injured and can't fight to get enough.

The fact is some children are clearly starving, some children are amputees and some will have other illnesses that they can only get treated outside Gaza. They are all innocent children and God help them.

Another possibility is that clans and armed militia were looting some of the supplies. The lack of journalism from within Gaza means it's quite difficult to know everything which has been going on.

Yes, I believe that may well be what happened.

It was reported that there was a black market in food.

ronib

One protocol allows for the dead of one country to be buried together where they fell.

If some of the hostages were being kept in apartments and those apartment blocks were bombed, it's likely that the captors and hostages were killed and the bodies were dismembered and landed wherever they fell. It's going to be extremely difficult to identify individuals. If they were in tunnels and the tunnels were bombed, it could be that they collapsed and the bodies are lying deep in the ground.

One protocol allows for the dead of one country to be buried together where they fell.

ronib

There are protocols for returning war dead as defined in the Geneva Convention.

The bodies have to be located before they can be returned? It is estmated that there are 10,000 bodies under the rubble.

ronib

There are protocols for returning war dead as defined in the Geneva Convention.

We are still waiting for all the British dead from WWII to be returned, some still being found. These things can take time.

There are protocols for returning war dead as defined in the Geneva Convention.

theworriedwell

Allira I suppose there are many possibilities, one family has enough money to buy food, one mother produces lots of milk and another doesn't and can't get formula. Different area might have had better access to aid than others. The horrific thought is you have two children and enough food for both to slowly starve but enough to feed one adequately, I can't bear the thought but maybe it could come down to that. Maybe the Hamas membership is another or you have a husband who can fight his way through to get the aid while another husband is ill or injured and can't fight to get enough.

The fact is some children are clearly starving, some children are amputees and some will have other illnesses that they can only get treated outside Gaza. They are all innocent children and God help them.

Another possibility is that clans and armed militia were looting some of the supplies. The lack of journalism from within Gaza means it's quite difficult to know everything which has been going on.

Allira

Yes. They can't just go in with bulldozers to start rebuilding.

No, but the Israelis could allow in small diggers to clear rubble from where bodies are probably buried. Some of the bodies will be Israeli.

Allira I suppose there are many possibilities, one family has enough money to buy food, one mother produces lots of milk and another doesn't and can't get formula. Different area might have had better access to aid than others. The horrific thought is you have two children and enough food for both to slowly starve but enough to feed one adequately, I can't bear the thought but maybe it could come down to that. Maybe the Hamas membership is another or you have a husband who can fight his way through to get the aid while another husband is ill or injured and can't fight to get enough.

The fact is some children are clearly starving, some children are amputees and some will have other illnesses that they can only get treated outside Gaza. They are all innocent children and God help them.

Thats what I'd been thinking as soon as I heard not all bodies were recovered - what WWM said.

For goodness sake, just think through it!

How on earth can they expect to get every hostage out alive or even where they last were when they have bombed the place to pieces ?

......and it is very likely that they had a record initially of where each hostage was taken, but then lost touch with who was where, assumed the bodies could be found, then they were not.

Yes. They can't just go in with bulldozers to start rebuilding.

petra

Oreo

Whitewavemark2

I read that Israel has stopped aid into Gaza, because the Palestinians are having real difficulty in identifying the Israeli remains and returning them to the bereaved.

One really shouldn’t be surprised given the level of destruction and chaos. The very least the Israelis could do is to send in a delegation to give them a hand in trying to find the remains.

Stooping aid will do nothing to help the bereaved.

That comment made me laugh out loud, so thanks for that.
The poor Palestinians (Hamas and other terror groups) are having a hard time, so the IDF should pop round to help.😄

If the situation wasn’t so serous the suggestion could almost be a scene from The Life Of Brian 😱

Whitewavemark2 does make a serious point though. Huge swathes of Gaza have been destroyed, there are thousands of bodies buried under the rubble, and they do need help to get them out and buried. Amongst the dead will almost inevitably be some of the hostages. International help and a lot of heavy machinery is going to be the only way some bodies can be retrieved.

theworriedwell

CariadAgain

Yep...it is indeed very sad to see young children like that.

The bit that gets me most is those photos of children with absolutely stick thin limbs, ribs showing and very "old" eyes that have seen far too much.

I don't think I can watch the news anymore. Those poor children.

Yet other children look fit, well and even happy, despite all? Children can be so resilient!

Why? Are their family members of Hamas in receipt of food?

Are the children who look so starved those who need medical attention for other reasons?
The photo of child who looked so heartbreakingly emaciated and ill, which went around the world, was photoshopped to exclude his little brother, who appeared in the unedited version, not looking starved.

Who was receiving the food aid that does get through?

I don't know the answer, just pondering.

ronib

I think Hamas is stretching out the return of the bodies to prolong stage 1 of the peace agreement. I can only guess that this tactic is stalling for time so that weapons can be shipped out or in some way concealed. Or maybe more specifically, to make it harder to proceed to stage 2.
We’re not dealing with a bunch of boys scouts after all.

They arnt hanging it out for no other reason than they don’t know where the bodies are simple as.

Oreo

Whitewavemark2

I read that Israel has stopped aid into Gaza, because the Palestinians are having real difficulty in identifying the Israeli remains and returning them to the bereaved.

One really shouldn’t be surprised given the level of destruction and chaos. The very least the Israelis could do is to send in a delegation to give them a hand in trying to find the remains.

Stooping aid will do nothing to help the bereaved.

That comment made me laugh out loud, so thanks for that.
The poor Palestinians (Hamas and other terror groups) are having a hard time, so the IDF should pop round to help.😄

If the situation wasn’t so serous the suggestion could almost be a scene from The Life Of Brian 😱