Should the West intervene with more aid and peacekeeping forces to stem the stream of young men leaving their homelands?

Allira

GrannyGravy13

Sorry for not being precise, the OP was just a jumble of my thoughts to what is a growing issue for many people and countries.

Sudan is an even bigger problem than Gaza/Israel.

African countries are ripe for China to pop in and exert influence and pressure more so than it already has/is.

The solution if there is one is way above my paygrade

Although my post was general in response to your question, GrannyGravy I mentioned Sudan specifically in the last sentence because that country is rich in gold which could be used to build a prosperous country and help all its people.

Instead the gold is being used to fund weapons by both sides in the Civil war and I can't see how intervening with peacekeepers could help without even more lives being lost and the West being accused of interfering.

Charities such as the Red Cross are doing their best supporting people with aid too, and we as individuals can help there and in other countries with our donations but is this aid always getting to those who need it?

What Western aid can do is support the refugee camps in Egypt and Chad (and other countries with huge numbers of refugees, such as Turkey). There's a real risk that groups of people in the camps will become radicalised, so the West could benefit from trying to stop that from happening.

fancythat

Even Bill Gates has given up on the, climate change will cause massive destruction" or whatever he said, idea.

I'm sure the people in the Caribbean who have just experienced hurricane Melissa (which weather scientists attribute to warming ocean water as a result of climate change) will be relieved to know that it didn't cause 'massive destruction'.

fancythat

Even Bill Gates has given up on the, climate change will cause massive destruction" or whatever he said, idea.

From what I've read, he hasn't actually given up on the idea, but he does think there should be more emphasis on eradicating disease and poverty. He thinks there are ways global warming could be mitigated, but that the targets are unreaslistic.

Global warming will affect some countries, so the world needs to prepare for that.

GrannyGravy13

Sorry for not being precise, the OP was just a jumble of my thoughts to what is a growing issue for many people and countries.

Sudan is an even bigger problem than Gaza/Israel.

African countries are ripe for China to pop in and exert influence and pressure more so than it already has/is.

The solution if there is one is way above my paygrade

Although my post was general in response to your question, GrannyGravy I mentioned Sudan specifically in the last sentence because that country is rich in gold which could be used to build a prosperous country and help all its people.

Instead the gold is being used to fund weapons by both sides in the Civil war and I can't see how intervening with peacekeepers could help without even more lives being lost and the West being accused of interfering.

Charities such as the Red Cross are doing their best supporting people with aid too, and we as individuals can help there and in other countries with our donations but is this aid always getting to those who need it?

Even Bill Gates has given up on the, climate change will cause massive destruction" or whatever he said, idea.

Climate change will be a factor in making countries poorer, as crops fail.

This, from the link I posted earlier:

For decades, developing nations have been caught in a set of global systems, economic, political, financial, that extract wealth, suppress growth, and keep entire populations trapped. And while aid campaigns and policy summits talk about “ending poverty,” the core machinery that produces it rarely changes.

And some of the 'core machinery' is, according to the article:

Start

The Debt Trap: When Loans Become Chains

Many poor countries owe billions to institutions like the IMF and World Bank. These loans come with strings attached: governments must cut public services, privatize industries, and open their markets.

This process is called “structural adjustment.”
But in practice, it means:

• Hospitals closed.
• Teachers laid off.
• Water systems sold to private corporations.
Meanwhile, the money keeps flowing out: in 2023 alone, Global South countries paid $232 billion in debt service, far more than they received in aid.

Unfair Trade: The Myth of “Free” Markets

Developing countries are told to embrace “free trade.” But rich countries don’t play fair. They subsidize their farmers and industries while demanding that poorer countries drop tariffs and protections.

Take West African cotton farmers: they grow high-quality cotton, but can’t compete with U.S. cotton dumped on the market, subsidized by billions in government support.

Result: Local economies collapse. Foreign goods flood markets. Dependency deepens.

Global Corruption, Not Just Local

The media loves to portray developing countries as corrupt. But rarely do they follow the money.

Stolen public funds are hidden in offshore tax havens. And who helps? Western lawyers. Swiss banks. British real estate firms.

This isn’t local failure. It’s a global system of legal loopholes protecting thieves.

Colonial Institutions That Never Left

Even after independence, many former colonies were left with institutions designed for extraction, not development.

Laws that protected settlers still govern land. Bureaucracies serve elites, not citizens. Borders drawn in Europe divide ethnic groups and fuel conflict.

Brain Drain: Exporting the Future

When the smartest people in a country leave to work in London, New York, or Berlin, what’s left?

Doctors. Engineers. Entrepreneurs.

They were trained at public expense, but serve elsewhere. Not by choice, but because home offers few opportunities.

End

That isn't everything, but it's enough to start with..,

I have begun to realise that the world is shrinking and when a butterfly flaps its wings in a faraway sub Saharan country, Europe feels the breeze.

What a lovely way of putting it!

I will admit that in the past I have been all for cutting the overseas aid budget.

I have begun to realise that the world is shrinking and when a butterfly flaps its wings in a faraway sub Saharan country, Europe feels the breeze.

Aid is soft diplomacy as is the Royal Family (apologies republicans) and the country who’s government is most effective at using soft diplomacy will end up in a position of power.

Think I have just copied Wyllow's recent post.

You are making some thought provoking points MOnica.
Perhaps the ones at the top, processing all of our aid, have been at fault, and we feel we have 'done our bit'.
But I do think it's more than just permanent 'hopelessness'.

Some of the 'low level' aid programmes seem to work.
Thinking about Mary's Meals, which feeds children but only at their school, and so promotes education as well. They employ local women as cooks, and buy and local basic produce for the meals.
Small stuff, not at governments levels.

I frequently think non intervention is as harmful as intervention, but politically non intervention is easier as you don't get people screaming 'but Iraq' at you twenty years down the line.

growstuff

Maremia

Meanwhile China has for decades been 'investing' in African countries. Not giving aid, but funding practical projects.
The downside is that these countries now owe a massive dept to China.

Yes, they do and I doubt if China will let them forget. China has replaced the British and other Empires.

It is our aid giving policies that have led to this situation. We have poured aid into these countries without any kind of come back and made them dependent on other people's money for everything they do (plus funding those ruling these countries)

Now that we aare no longer pouring money into these countries, they are incapable of functioning on their own and funding their own projects and are just glad to be able to find another source of funds. The permanent 'helpless and hopeless' mentality engendered in them by the aid giving culture has made them reckless about the long term consequences of Chinese loans. I think they just expect that when the pips start squeaking they will just turn round and look for people elsewhere to pay their loans and sort them out again.

Not dealing with war Zones, but abject poverty, those "small but widespread schemes" to bring decent water, a modicum of health support, education on how to run small businesses, the latest on crops ie maximum production from bad soil ...Sewing machines for local co-operatives, birth control, Aids funding et al

...these can slowly make a huge difference.

GrannyGravy13

I have been pondering this for sometime now.

UK and many other countries are constantly derided on GN for their colonialism of the past, but should we (UK, Europe and America) now intervene in the poorer countries on the planet.

By intervention I mean help not exploitation.

Would/could any intervention and aid make their lives better in their homelands and slow down the migration of their menfolk.

This must leave a void, with women picking up the slack in dreadful conditions, many having sold what they can to fund their sons/brothers/husbands journey.

I think this is a great start.

Hats off to you, GG13.

Maremia

Oh GrannyGravy, this is such a sad thread. Good on you, having a go.
It's sad because either Posters, like myself, have only wishes, and not much else, but will persist, and might learn,
and because other Posters could be completely against the whole concept of helping 'others', and will say so.

I am not against helping other. I have been a generous and continuing donator to overseas aid charities for over half a century.

But looking back over those years we have seen so little change, so little development and so much of our aid being syphoned off for non-aid use.

I just think it is time we sat back and assessed whether our aid is a help or a hindrance. The problem is that the donors have so much of themselves invested in aid programmes, that it is very difficult to face the fact that we may be doing more harm than good, and that the main benefits of this money have been us and our sensitive consciences, rather than the people we are meant to be helping.

I for one, while still donating, am aware that by doing so I am making the problems for these countries worse rather than better

Maremia

Meanwhile China has for decades been 'investing' in African countries. Not giving aid, but funding practical projects.
The downside is that these countries now owe a massive dept to China.

Yes, they do and I doubt if China will let them forget. China has replaced the British and other Empires.

Think the 'Sudan' Thread has dropped, so it's relevant to talk about that tragic country here as well.

MOnica The problem with withdrawing all aid is that other countries, specifically China, won't stop. The wheels of history trundle along and one day we'll find that China has replaced the US as the dominant force in the world. It will already have its foot in sub-Saharan Africa with its vast resources. The Arab "bloc" might get its act together and form a coherent force.

None of us will be around, but I suspect the West has had its turn at the top table. Let's not forget that the Middle East and China (amongst others) were better educated and more civilised at a time when Europeans were still marauding tribes. Overseas aid does more than "aid" poorer countries - it buys soft diplomatic links.

Meanwhile China has for decades been 'investing' in African countries. Not giving aid, but funding practical projects.
The downside is that these countries now owe a massive dept to China.

Read your 'link' growstuff, thanks.
Worth a look Posters, if you do links.

Oh GrannyGravy, this is such a sad thread. Good on you, having a go.
It's sad because either Posters, like myself, have only wishes, and not much else, but will persist, and might learn,
and because other Posters could be completely against the whole concept of helping 'others', and will say so.

Nothing will change until the countries from which these young men come put their own houses in order.

Over the last 50-60 years western countries have poured billions, if not trillions of £/$ into these countries to no effect. A significant amount of the money has gone into a black hole called 'corruption'. Most of themembers of the ruling groups in these countries are obscenely rich with billions of $s tucked away in Swiss and arab bank accounts.

In fact I would go so far as to say that one of the reason we have with immigration is BECAUSE of all the aid western countries have poured into these failing states.

The desire to give aid seems to be more involved with assuaging the sensitive consciences of European people than anything to do with what the people in these countries actually need.

I am going to suggest that the best thing we can do at present is stop all aid, withdraw all aid workers and allow the people and governments of these countries to work out solutions to their problems for themselves. Showrining countries with aid to assuage our consciences is selfish and develops a dependency culture that has only destroyed more than it has helped.

fancythat

Personally, you must be joking.

Bankrupt the "West" before end of next year.

The "West" will be bankrupt anyway, if it's not proactive. Our children and grandchildren will be cursing us for not doing enough.

On the surface it is an attractive idea and makes sense but .....
- western "interference" internationally does not have a good track record ... Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan/Vietnam.
- without a true understanding of another culture it is hard to intervene in positive ways. Rory Stewart talks eloquently of this.
- some countries' governments have the means to solve the problems but choose to line their pockets instead.
- how to decide what form that intervention might take and to get western consensus?

It is a minefield the has no simple solution. Global media has let the cat out of the bag that there are more affluent lives to be led elsewhere and noone can be blamed for seeking better for themselves and their families. That tide is well and truly flowing and any approach aimed at prevention would take time, research, negotiation etc. and in the meantime the tide will keep flowing. Those leading miserable lives know that the chances of any such solution will be too slow for their needs.