Pro Palestinian crowds shrieking and yelling at the Aston Villa Park Stadium

Onlymedea

Why is an Israeli team in the Europa League? They aren't a european team.

Because quite a long time ago the Arab league wouldn’t allow Israel to carry on playing , many Muslim countries around Israel voted to not allow them to stay in their league.I don’t know exactly when this was, I haven’t looked it up, but around 50 years ago maybe?So they switched to the Europa League.

They went up in my estimation.
This is all very fishy, that MiddleEast Eye is somehow more in the know than MI5, or our government or police.
So called links to the IDF probably means some of the fans have served their military time as they are required to do in Israel.
Dutch Muslims were charged and sentenced for their brutality towards Israeli fans in Amsterdam.
There were Tel Aviv fans who weren’t blameless as in all football fan bases but overall it was the over reaction from Amsterdam Muslims who cornered anyone they thought was a Jew.
The Mayor of Amsterdam and police apologised for this.

They have both gone down in my estimation Babs03.

AGAA4

The demonstrations ended up being mostly peaceful. I wonder if it would have been so peaceful if those Maccabi fans had been allowed to come. I think it could have been mayhem as they are violent and disruptive.

This was the sole criteria when the Birmingham police force made their decision, it was not antisemitic or about pro Palestine protesters, but in response to a hard core of Maccabi fans who had already caused mayhem in other parts of Europe, and indeed in Israel as well.
Am just wondering what Starmer and Nandy are feeling now after such knee jerk reactions?
And after attempting to undermine the police.

Ramblingrose22

I've struggled to "unravel" some of this. I don't claim to have any special expertise.

I doubt if the Israeli football team wanted to do anything more than play football on Wednesday night. The team are not responsible for the behaviour of their fans or for the policies of the Israeli Government. Given that the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans were not allowed to attend the match, what were the protests really about?

I have seen people (including Jewish people) being accused of anti-semitism just because they disagree with the Israeli Government or what the IDF have been doing in Gaza. This is another sort of conflation because of the inflammatory and polarising nature of any discussions about the war in Gaza.

There are plenty of Israelis who also disagree with their Government and the way the war in Gaza has been conducted and who sympathise with the plight of the Gazans who have been governed by a bunch of terrorists for so long and so many of whom have lost their homes. Does that make such Israelis anti-semitic too?

However, those who support the Palestinians and use the expression "From the River to the Sea", despite claims that the words mean something else, are widely regarded as anti-Israel. I have seen that these words are generally used by those supporting Hamas and others who wish to see the destruction of Israel once and for all. For all we know, the majority of Palestinians just want their own homeland as a separate country (i.e. a two-state solution) without the destruction of Israel.

I wonder what proportion of "pro-Palestinian" protesters want the destruction of Israel and a one-state solution.

Ramblingrose

Netaanjahu's Likud Party was formed in 1973 and part of their written key policy

was that Israel should be from the River to the Sea

Basically, the extremes of both sides - and there are many far more extreme than Netanyahu

are saying "From the River to the Sea"

Its really important to get this point across for obvious reasons - as long as that phrase is only attributed to supporters of Palestinians

-we are forgetting that many Jewish people - of course, by not means at all by anyones measure

Are not only requesting the same thing

but are taking it as we write.

I think the correct decision was made.

The demonstrations ended up being mostly peaceful. I wonder if it would have been so peaceful if those Maccabi fans had been allowed to come. I think it could have been mayhem as they are violent and disruptive.

I didn't know that, bmacca, about the link to the IDF.

Oreo, if I want to talk about the fans, I will do so, with or without your permission. You talk about your choice of subject, I will discuss mine.
That's the GN way, isn't it?

bmacca that is what I read.

bmacca - I remember that point coming up re the Netherlands Police. Valid point.

Quick glance for exemptions for them basically boiling down to if they're deemed medically unfit or having serious criminal convictions.

I get it re the "having committed genocide" point - given the number of photos/videos up there one can see of them with a smile plastered on their face after their "bad behaviour" or parading round someone's ruined home with female underwear from the owners of the home. That's before we get into the humiliating stuff they do to Palestinian men sometimes. They give every appearance of enjoying themselves/being arrogant etc etc.

Middle East Eye reported that police in the Netherlands told WM Police that more than two hundred ‘fans’ were not just a racist mob that had run riot in Amsterdam last November, attacking Muslims and other locals, but were “linked to the Israel Defence Forces” (IDF) – with “hundreds more” also “highly organised” “experienced fighters” who were determined to cause “serious violence” in Birmingham.

The above information explains why some of the pro Palestine group refers to the Maccabi fans as “killers”. It is also worth noting that out of 37 players listed for Maccabi this season, 29 are Israeli. Serving in the IDF is mandatory for Israeli citizens, which means that 29 of Maccabi’s players could have actively committed genocide. Hence why demonstrators are calling for the team to be banned from the competition

Onlymedea

Lathyrus3

I just saw it on one of the placards a protester was holding up maremiaand it gave me pause for thought.

Obviously the placard holder either regarded the football players as killers or the people who’d turned up to support them as killers or both. Because there weren’t any actual killers there but she identified them as such.

So guilt by association or nationality? Which is what some of the replies to my first post said I think. Not antisemitism because it was Israelis, but still right because they were Israelis.

Now the thing is will that be applied across the board. Are the people of Gaza killers because their government has killed civilians?

And if it doesn’t apply to them why should it be applied to all Israelis- or just to football team and its supporters.

Or should people actually examine why they would apply it to one set of people and not to another?

Don't almost all young Israelis serve in the army? If so and there isn't an exemption for footballers then the Israelis in the team must have served in the IDF, the army that has been killing innocent children.

That had me on Chat GPT with a query about that.

The men have to go into the IDF at 18 years old and serve about 32 months.

The women have to go into the IDF at 18 years old and serve about 24 months.

Thinks - wonder if that is the second they get to 18 years old or, if they're still in education, then when they finish that. Think I'll head back for a supplementary question on that point.....

In other words - none of those men I've seen photos of coming here to support their team looked under 18 to me and that would mean they have indeed done a stint in that army.

Oreo

CariadAgain
I think that your feud with neighbours over your garden seems to have made you think it’s exactly the same with Israel but it really isn’t you know.

Ah right - I forgot - the neighbours don't have a 3,000 year old book they can quote saying that property that isnt theirs is theirs....

I'll give you that - there's one difference = no "holy book".

Oreo

The team players are from various countries and religions in the Tel Aviv side.

Yes, but Maccabi is still an Israeli team. Liverpool FC has players from all over the world and of many different religions, but nobody would dispute it's a English team.

Thanks Onlymedea. Obviously I’m delighted that Villa won as we needed the points but I’m also glad the game is over. Apart from a lot of noise, which is fairly typical from a football ground anyway, there were no outbreaks of violence which is what I had worried about before the match.

Why is an Israeli team in the Europa League? They aren't a european team.

Lathyrus3

I just saw it on one of the placards a protester was holding up maremiaand it gave me pause for thought.

Obviously the placard holder either regarded the football players as killers or the people who’d turned up to support them as killers or both. Because there weren’t any actual killers there but she identified them as such.

So guilt by association or nationality? Which is what some of the replies to my first post said I think. Not antisemitism because it was Israelis, but still right because they were Israelis.

Now the thing is will that be applied across the board. Are the people of Gaza killers because their government has killed civilians?

And if it doesn’t apply to them why should it be applied to all Israelis- or just to football team and its supporters.

Or should people actually examine why they would apply it to one set of people and not to another?

Don't almost all young Israelis serve in the army? If so and there isn't an exemption for footballers then the Israelis in the team must have served in the IDF, the army that has been killing innocent children.

bmacca

I’m a Villa fan. I was at last night’s game. It was a great result for Villa doing Maccabi Tel Aviv 2-0. Great result for the locals from Aston & the surrounding area who came out to say the football drenched in apartheid & genocide isn't welcome in Birmingham or anywhere else.

There were around 200 pro Palestine protesters and around 70/80 pro Israel protesters. The pro Palestine group were grouped in the park/playground area which is across the street from Villa Park. They did not prevent any Villa fans getting into the ground. There was one incident where police tried to close a gate on some Villa fans but once it was clear they were fans with tickets and not protesters, this was quickly resolved.

The pro Israel group had sent trucks with electronic messages on to circle the ground. This group congregated on the opposite side of the ground but wanted to march along two roads to the playground area. They did this under a police escort. The police stopped them when they reached the start of the playground area where there is a basketball court. This was not a “Jew cage” and they were not locked in.

We saw people being arrested from both sets of protesters. A couple of arrests also appeared to be teenagers who were filming on TikTok and refused to move when told to by the police.

There were a number of Maccabi supporters in seats inside the ground. They displayed scarves & T-shirts showing their support. They were not subjected to any abuse from Villa fans, apart from a bit of banter about being Londoners.

I am dismayed at some of the racist overtones to the comments about Birmingham. Birmingham is a lively, diverse and welcoming city

Thank you, so good to hear what actually happened. Congratulations on your teams win.

Good points CariadAgain with good analogies..

CariadAgain
I think that your feud with neighbours over your garden seems to have made you think it’s exactly the same with Israel but it really isn’t you know.

There you go with the fans again Maremia if you read comments properly you’ll see that it’s teams being talked about and not fans….two distinct things.

Neither are other team's fans. These specific fans were banned because of actual Police reports from other countries.

Whitewavemark2

South Africa was banned from taking part in international sport because of apartheid.

Russia is currently banned because of Ukraine

I think it is important in order to send a message both to the government and its citizens.

Quite!

They are not some "poor little picked-on part of a country they wish to have all of..."

The clue is in the bit "they wish to have all of - on top of the bit they've already claimed".

This is where I envy people who've never had a bit of land or garden stolen off them by neighbours - and I guess that's why they don't understand the whole situation is completely unacceptable and why the Palestinians will always count all of Palestine as still being Palestine. Yep those people who've had some land stolen off them will always describe ALL of their land as theirs...and won't stop describing it that way ever just because some official bit of paper they never agreed to says so....

In any circumstance - from top to bottom - any bit of land that is yours will always remain yours unless you've sold it or given it away. Hence why you still describe it as yours....because it still is....

If a squatter moved into a home in Britain and made out it was theirs - the rightful owner will still retain the keys to it and will still describe it as theirs and will never give up ownership of it. I don't see how that seems to be hard for some people to understand just why older Palestinians are still trying to harvest their olives, still keep their keys to their stolen homes, etc. They weren't "bought and paid for" - so obviously they are still theirs...

Israel sports teams are not banned from coming to the UK and taking part…just in case some posters don’t realise that.