Palestine for the Palestinian peoples, Israel for the Israeli peoples

The ‘extras’ and ‘newbies’ as you charmingly call them from WW2 were the traumatised Jews from Europe after what they went through .The survivors of the death camps and all those who felt no longer safe in their own countries.

Into the West Bank? Yes I do think it should stop.

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Well if they do stop right now I accept there might have to be compromises. But between now and the next election, dont you think they should stop further expansion Oreo?

Wyllow3

Both sides, if you go a long back in history, have lived on these lands. It can only be resolved by compromise.

CariadAgain doesn’t seem to get that fact, that Jews have been on the land there for thousands of years, just as long as the Palestinians.
Fate has handed most of the land to the Jewish people and they won’t be handing it back.

You’re deluded if you think Israel will give up any of its land to Palestinians.
Under a new government it will very likely stop the settlements in the West Bank.
The extremists on the right in Israel are kept in check and being a democracy sometimes do well and sometimes don’t.The extremists on the Palestinian side will also be kept in check by Israel as ( Trump may say) they hold all the cards.
The two State solution is further away than ever after what hamas did in Israel.There will be no compromise from Israel.

Both sides, if you go a long back in history, have lived on these lands. It can only be resolved by compromise.

Allsorts

Israel does not think Palestinians are equal and never will. It is heartbreaking to witness.

When you look at it - what has happened in various countries over the centuries when others have moved in there too is often a fair bit of intermarrying goes on and things "meld together" a bit so to say and conflict is sorta "resolved" that way.

I bet there's little, if any, of that going on in Palestine. Just the inhabitants on one side and the interlopers on the other hand and I don't expect there's much/if any mixing going on. Hence part of why I envisage there will remain two groups - the real owners of Palestine and the others. It doesn't look as if most of the others regard the Palestinians as the real owners of their country and just want them to vanish in a puff of smoke as if they'd never been and then they can rewrite history totally to suit themselves. You listen to what some of them are saying on screen - that woman who leads the settlers is the worst...but there are many that talk/act along those lines. I struggle to get my head around them being the way they are....it takes one heck of a sense of entitlement for sure.

Israel does not think Palestinians are equal and never will. It is heartbreaking to witness.

.....and the proof that "Most Palestinians would be happy to live their lives" is =

...and the proof that most people will eventually come to accept that what has been stolen from them has been stolen and will just accept that it is =

....and it's all their own fault (apparently) for not accepting leftovers of their own country and leftovers of their own lives...

People don't conveniently forget about what is theirs by rights - some fight back....some stick it up there as a mental note in their brain under a "When I get the chance - I will deal with that".

Most people don't get conveniently walked over and what is theirs taken off them and the victims just accept it (whether in this sort of context or a very different personal context in a very different country). It would be interesting to know just what percentage of people are prepared to "forgive and forget" about stolen property and I know I've still got a mental "bill or two to be paid etc" from an offender that's been sitting there in my mind waiting for settlement for 50 years. Those mental "bills" don't just vanish - the victim will usually wait their chance to set matters straight - even if it takes decades. Victims of theft or whatever don't just "shrug their shoulders and go" - at some level they will always be waiting for justice and recompense.

What you don't appear to see Oreo is that the extremists on both sides will have to give way or peace won't be reached.

Both sides on the extremes want "River to the Sea"

Pointless blaming either one of the other specifically, blame those on each side who want all the land for themselves.

But that means Israeli people leaving the West Bank or at the very least stopping expansion - right now.

What you don’t understand is that Palestinians ( as opposed to Israelis) can’t be treated equally as far as land is concerned, they have the WestBank or most of it and Gaza, but they want all the land that is now and has been for a long time the country of Israel.They can’t have it of course because it’s not their land anymore.I agree that Palestinian terror groups will always be trying to push back on this, while most Palestinians would be happier to just live their lives.
I also agree and always have, that building by Israeli settlers in the WestBank is wrong.Different governments in Israel have either stopped it and pulled those houses down or have turned a blind eye to it.
The terror groups have made the lives of Palestinians so much harder both in Gaza and the WestBank, they will never get what they want and it’s the ordinary people who suffer as a result.

I was born just after the war ended and I can remember there was a lot of compassion for the Jewish people and the horrors they had gone through.
I think people felt like that in 1948 when Israel became a state. The US wanted this to happen.
Unfortunately there was little thought for the Arab people who were already living there and they have been seen by Israel as lesser people who they don't want there.
As Babs03 said until the Palestinians are treated equally and have access to their land the conflict will go on.

Add into the equation the latest little factor that's come up - those mysterious couple of flights (looks like there will be more) that are being organised (one has just happened and the other was earlier in the year) to a "destination unknown - but outside Palestine" have, as I suspected, got someone from guess where (no prizes for that one...but it starts with I) organising them.

Given the plane fares aren't cheap (think it's something like £6,000 for a family) = this is aimed at the better-off and more "middle class" Palestinians I'd say. One wonders why this is happening and I think we can be darn sure it ain't from compassion. To me it looks more like thinking "We've still got some of the best-educated/best-off etc Palestinians here in Gaza. We want rid of them - people like that are more capable than many of fighting back against us. They're the most likely to be the intelligent ones etc. So how can we get them to leave the country? I know - planes out...just for the better-off".

I think that's what they're up to providing those planes.

Ironically whilst very many people of Jewish descent have been allowed to settle in Israel, no questions asked. Very many Palestinians have been forcibly ousted and have no right to return.
It is this herd of elephants in the room that we need to address if Israel wants a peaceful solution. Just as they get a free pass to settle in Israel, original Palestinian settlers should be allowed to return. Without this there can never be peace. The sheer injustice of it is staggeringly obvious.

If I don't - then go on - explain it to us why they didnt and pushed instead to have Palestine (NOT mentioning the centuries old book they quote....).

Explain to us why those that did go to America - but then moved later - didnt stay in America (where they were perfectly safe). Again without mentioning that centuries old book.

Just reason and logic ...

You have no real understanding of those times CariadAgain none at all.

Why didnt they - on an individual basis - go to America instead?

If a household was going to move out of Germany in the 1930s to feel safe (and it was certainly understandable to feel threatened in those circumstances) then actually why didnt they go to America or, if they did go there, then stay there?
I think Australia would have been another possibility for them - plenty of spare land there so to say (given similar circumstances to America - ie the aborigines certainly werent too happy about their land being taken over).

Certainly there were other places where they could have gone on an individual household basis and not grabbing land off a whole nation worth of rightful owners whilst doing so. So why didnt they? I'm doing pragmatic real world considerations and not what they say a centuries old book says.

Unless Iran rids itself of the Mullahs it will always be an enemy of the West.In the days of the Shah it was a very different and better place.

Has it ever occurred to anyone how terrifying it was to the very many Jews in Germany in the 1930’s and 40’s that the country they were born in now was at war with them? That their own government was taking their houses and possessions and sending them to the death camps and the gas chambers.
Now they have their own country where their government and people will never turn on them.So yes, incoming missiles from terror groups are worth it.Outsiders they can deal with.It was the enemy within that they feared before that in Europe.

*decide to throw its lot in…

It really depends how alliances shift. Right now Iran is opposing the US but was it biggest ally prior to the revolution. And I can see a counter revolution happening there before Israel gets its house in order. And this may well mean that Iran once more becomes an ally of the US and subsequently other western governments. For despite what is said about Iran its people remain the most pro west in the region. If this happens the US could devise to throw its lot in with Iran again meaning Israel isn’t their poster girl anymore.
May sound impossible and probs won’t happen in my lifetime, but stranger things can happen, so Israel would be wise to stop rattling cages and start mending bridges.

Israel has been at war with most of the regions in the middle east since 1948. I don't think this will change as they have many enemies now.
Certainly not a safe haven and the US may not always have their backs.

Yep...I reckon you've summed it up in one Babs as to how things are likely to go.

Meanwhile - I've had my mini little history lesson for the day - this time involving my own race - ie the English. The 100 years war was the fault of the English - we were trying to grab/hold onto French land. According to Chat GPT we got beaten in the end because of French consolidation, our internal problems (eg Wars of the Roses) distracting from us continuing to fight that unjust war and military trends favouring France. Well there was the correct winner to that conflict - and it wasn't us. We were in the wrong there. Not that that taught us any lessons much - given how things went in subsequent centuries.

My best guesstimate of the next few decades - I think there might possibly be justice for the Palestinians eventually/they might just be able to rebuild their country....but I'm afraid I don't see it happening for some years and I think it will be the Palestine diaspora returning to their country and taking it back and that will happen after my time I reckon. A lot of their "brightest and best" have had to make lives for themselves in other countries during all of this....so it will be more of a "return" by them that will bring the country back and I think America has to lose a lot of its "position in the world" and stop trying to run/ruin other peoples countries before it will be possible and I don't see America growing up any time soon I'm afraid and not a hope in heck under Trump (with that son-in-law of his hoping for Gaza and him threatening to destroy our BBC for a start-off - which he will certainly manage if he gets that £5 billion out of them that he's posturing for). He just wants to "bluff and bluster" towards whatever he wants and "Will we please turn a blind eye to his personal life?"

Sadly I agree CariadAgain, there is far too much bloodshed, hatred, and anger, and even once Hamas are history, another group of Palestinians will rise from the ashes of Gaza. Netanyahu isn’t going make Israel safer but far more unsafe and what’s more a pariah state on the international stage. Perhaps that won’t bother them whilst the US keeps finding their army and defences. But what if the US withdraws such largesse because of dire domestic issues??
Times change.
Certainly this war has not ensured that this region is a safe haven for anyone.