Was the Britain we have today worth all the sacrifices made in WW2?

David49

growstuff

PS. The portrayal of a broken society is everything to do with the right.

So out of control drug use, increased knife crime, prisons overcrowded, uncontrolled migration is the fault of the right.

No out of control liberal attitudes is the cause.

As we have had more tory governments post WW2 than we have had Labour governments I would say that the blame lies firmly on the right as, since 1979, they set about trying to destroy as much of the public sector as they possibly could; thus underfunding vital services which could have prevented, or at least, positively mitigated, the evils listed.

David49

growstuff

David49

www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

I really don't know what point you're making. That link proves that I was right. The UK received more Marshall Plan money than Germany.

Britain recieved large share yet did not modernize its industry, allowing our competitors to take over our market, the car industry, machine tools, steel, are good example's, nor did we invest more recently in new technology.

No, you're right, David. Britain spent the money trying to prop up its Empire.

Was this a sad failure on the part of the post war Labour government which achieved so much in other ways, or of the tory governments which succeeded it?

GrannyGravy I suggest you remind the Moslem men who routinely beat their women for minor offences. Who offer up their sister to be raped by the brother of a female raped by a member of their family, their so called justice Tell that to the Taliban who have eliminated females from society in the name of Islam…

Atrocities are committed in the name of religion by all religions including Christianity. It doesnt make everyone who follows that religion the same or to blame!

growstuff

PS. The portrayal of a broken society is everything to do with the right.

So out of control drug use, increased knife crime, prisons overcrowded, uncontrolled migration is the fault of the right.

No out of control liberal attitudes is the cause.

What would life in this country today be, had we not won the war? Unless a very different kind of power had evolved over the years , there would be no Gypsies, Jews, disabled - an Aryan race was the aim, and non Aryan people would be ruthlessly eliminated. Surely it was all worth it.

GrannyGravy13

Caleo

“O you who believe! Let not a people ridicule [another] people; perhaps they may be better than them.” (Qur’an 49:11)

The Prophet Muhammad ﷺ emphasized good manners, patience, and avoiding public humiliation.

Shaming someone publicly over clothing is more a reflection of cultural attitudes or personal judgment, not true Islamic ethics. Islam also teaches that accountability is ultimately between a person and God, and it’s not for individuals to enforce it with aggression or humiliation.

I suggest you remind the Moslem men who routinely beat their women for minor offences.

Who offer up their sister to be raped by the brother of a female raped by a member of their family, their so called justice

Tell that to the Taliban who have eliminated females from society in the name of Islam…

GG, what makes you think rape, oppression of women, and Taliban dictators are Islamic?

There are different sects within Islam .

Islamism and the weaponising of Islam is not the same as Islam.

growstuff

David49

www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

I really don't know what point you're making. That link proves that I was right. The UK received more Marshall Plan money than Germany.

Britain recieved large share yet did not modernize its industry, allowing our competitors to take over our market, the car industry, machine tools, steel, are good example's, nor did we invest more recently in new technology.

PS. The portrayal of a broken society is everything to do with the right.

MaizieD

^Nothing to do with the right, as you call it, all to do with the breakdown of our society.^

So, what do you think has caused this breakdown, Freya?

Though, to be honest, I don't recognise the picture you paint of contemporary life in the UK

I don't recognise this picture either, although it's a classic picture painted by those who wish to undermine society. The reference to "others" is typical too.

David49

www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

I really don't know what point you're making. That link proves that I was right. The UK received more Marshall Plan money than Germany.

To answer the original question. Yes, WW2 was worth it, otherwise we'd be a colony of Germany under Nazi rule. Or at least we would have been for some time. If you think it's bad now, just imagine that. Also, the war wasn't just about Britain. My father was one of the first of the allies to arrive at Bergen Belsen. Presumably without the defeat of the Nazis, many more Jews, Romani and others would have been gassed to death. Including in this country.

The UK recieved 3.2 billion at around 2% interest most of which was wasted and not invested in regeneration.
Germany and Japan had their industrial infrastructure obliterated and unusable, it was rebuilt and modernized. After WW2 the UK struggled on with machinery worn out with war production in outdated buildings, that continued through the 1960s and 70s by that time our competitors were overtaking us.

Nothing to do with the right, as you call it, all to do with the breakdown of our society.

So, what do you think has caused this breakdown, Freya?

Though, to be honest, I don't recognise the picture you paint of contemporary life in the UK

MayBee70

Well, the war was fought against the far right and they now seem to be attempting to take over British politics. So I agree with him.

As I listen to the news,more stabbings, women cannot walk around at anytime safely, you can't even ride public transport in a safe environment, the shop lifting. The seemingly two tier policing, and justice system, letting sex pests off jail time, jailing people for nasty tweets.
I can see where he is coming from, even the the sharia loving adil ray tried to provoke him into racism.
Our freedoms are being eroded by this Gov, digital ID anyone.
Nothing to do with the right, as you call it, all to do with the breakdown of our society.

www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

David49

The loans were at a very low interest rate and didn’t need to be paid back

Which ones? The issue here is that Marshall Plan money is being confused with Land-Lease.

I've seen it written so many times that Germany recovered as a result of Marshall Plan money, whereas the UK received about twice as much.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 it started a few pages back with Caleo quoting from the Quran.

No GG the discussion veering towards Islamophobia started with the post by Teazel on page one of the thread:

“I was talking to a friend who has another friend who was walking past a mosque when the Muslim men were waiting outside before going into pray. They hissed at her for being in their view inappropriately dressed.

She was brave enough to confront them and say that this is her country and if they dont like it they should go to live in a country which holds their values.”

This was the first mention of ‘Muslim men’ - on a thread about a WW2 veteran’s comment. Why?

Caleo’s post quoting the Quran was a response to Teazel’s post.

Answering the original question, I think that Britain and her allies should be proud of defeating the terrible regimes in WW2.
The country today has so much to celebrate - a National Health Service, good schools, many opportunities for women , a wider representation of colour, gender and creed at the top of business, the judiciary, and Parliament.
Domestic violence is prosecuted, the death penalty is no more, there is greater transparency in government and media, and we no longer lock away people with significant learning difficulties, nor prosecute or " treat" people for their sexual orientation.

No, I am not Pollyanna, and I see the negatives,too - I'm just off to my foodbank shift, but we have so much to be thankful for.

The loans were at a very low interest rate and didn’t need to be paid back

GrannyGravy13

Allira

Just a reminder to those who may have forgotten this: About 5.5 million Muslims fought on the Allied side in WW2, of whom 1.5 million lost their lives. Not just those in the British Indian Army but other Forces too. The British Indian Army was instrumental in fighting the Japanese in the Far East Campaign.

Nobody has forgotten Allira

Many of us who have AC who have been sent to Iraq and/or Afghanistan know the other side of Islam.

One of my dearest girlfriends weeps for her Moslem sisters in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and other fundamentalist countries.

My nearest neighbours are ashamed of what is being done in the name of their prophet.

I fear that lots of people have forgotten - many Muslim soldiers fought under the Union flag, which has been hijacked by nationalists.

The money which wasn't paid back until Gordon Brown was PM was from the 1941 land-lease agreement, which paid for the UK's war machinery and was different from the Marshall Plan.

TerriBull

"Germany and Japan were utterly destroyed, it was tough for us ten times worse for them, they rebuilt their industry quickly and out-class ours"

In Germany's case they got massive aid via the Marshall Plan from grants and loans paid back under favourable conditions which were fully paid off by 1960. Meanwhile our loans were only paid off when Gordon Brown was PM. Also, having decimated many countries, whose wealth they also plundered during the war some of those countries migh argue that they were paid paltry reparations, if any, given the Versailles Treaty over punished them in the aftermath of WW1 and history told us what that lead to, so all in all they got off light in that respect. So whilst they certainly suffered in the immediate aftermath most of Europe was in ruins and hungry, particularly when the Red Army swept through Germany, by the mid 50s, just as we were coming out of rationing they were up and running, but they didn't do it entirely from their own efforts.

In fact, the largest recipient of Marshall Plan money was the United Kingdom (receiving about 26% of the total). The next highest contributions went to France (18%) and West Germany (11%).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

So do I grannygravy

Allira

GrannyGravy13

I think that WWII was worth the sacrifice as did my grandparents who lost siblings.

As a parent of a serving member of our armed forces, I am proud of all our service personnel past, present and those who gave their lives for ours 🙏🙏🙏

Hear hear, Grannygravy13

We can still pray for peace.

I agree👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

butterandjam

If Germany Hitler and Mussolini had won, Europe would be a fascist continent .

If we had been invaded, Britain would be very different today.

We'd still be ruled by foreign fascists who had sucked dry/ diverted all our global assets (last of the empire, the commonwealth) . So no influx of Commonwelath labour to rebuild Britain. No NHS. Of course we'd have no RAF, Navy or Army.

When King George VI died, Hitler would quite likely crown his old friends Duke of Windsor and Wallis .

I think similarly.
WW2 ended 80 years ago. Without their sacrifice, those 80 years would have been very different.
Life goes on, the world goes on and todays' problems are a consequence of more recent history, not a sign that it wasn't worth winning the war.
It's just how that particular veteran feels, just one opinion, not a verdict from on high.