Should men be banned from working in nurseries?

DiamondLily:" Female nursery workers sometimes abuse their charges.. It’s about abuse - not gender.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-49684939" and

andrea67: 'One of the worst offenders against small children was a female nurse, its not the sex of the perpetrator its their character'.

Agree it's about abuse not gender. There is a place for male and females the key issue is recruitment, monitoring, governance and safe working practices.

I don't have prejudices against men thankyou very much. I have an understanding of risk.
I managed a childrens home which included young people up to 19. I have never in all my time had to ensure men were on duty in order to facilitate moving and handling. I am not sure where people would stand legally to be honest in asking only men to participate in moving and handling.
I also think the original discussion was about nursery workers rather than care staff, they are different roles. I have employed male staff in caring roles for a very long time.
I have mixed views about nurseries but statistically men are more likely to commit sexual abuse of children, people need to understand that.

Of course all staff have training in behavioural management.

There are some tasks that can't be done by hoists and so on Galaxy, as you very well know. One example is getting someone not in a wheelchair in and out of a car or van.

But you are missing something huge

My DGD happens to respond better to male carers than women - at the moment. Some boys might also respond better to men, and of course vice versa, some girls or boys respond better to women. It will be a lifelong job to care for L, and other like her, and it clearly needs the normality of both men and women to be involved in this kind of work.

The idea of her being confined lifelong to women only becuase of your prejudices against men seems not only unfair but quite cruel, frankly. Our most disabled people deserve as "normal" a life as possible.

I ran childrens homes for many years, even back then we had hoists for those who needed them, it isn't actually a good idea to have the expectation that male staff deal with behaviour and lifting. Whilst we had male staff, it would have meant that if they were the only ones who vould manage behaviour, chidren with behavioural issues wouldnt be able to attend the service for most of the time, all staff should be trained in behaviour management.

correct - now at age 11.

I feel very strongly indeed that we need to look more carefully at this reaction against employing men, and I shall tell you why.

My Granddaughter, not at age 11, has to receive caring from and agency, which deals with children of all ages. And before people rush in, "but she's 11! not a nursery!

She has a mental age of 4 as do many other Special Needs Children. She has started her periods. But she is now so heavy a lot of women cannot lift her up and onto a commode, or in and out of a car. Some of the children, including my grandchild, who has virtually no sight, epilepsy, cerebral palsy, as well as learning diffiuclties:

Have behavioural difficulties which means they may hit out and this behaviour has to be physically contained of course in the most benign ways.

My DGD's carer at home is now mainly her Dad, as DiL has not the strength to cope, and she is quite a big woman as it is.

We need caring lovely men like my DS. It's quite crazy to pick on very rare examples and ban men altogether.

btw, there are nearly always 2 carers working as a team, but not on every single occasion - it would make viable pricing absolutely impossible.

the same goes for the schools she has been in, primary Schools from nursery and now first year in secondary school. its essential to have men: not only for "heavy lifting" and benign containing, but as male role models, males in their very restricted lives.

Female nursery workers sometimes abuse their charges.. It’s about abuse - not gender.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-49684939

My lovely gs worked in a nursery, the children loved him and so did most of the parents. It was the other ( female) staff who were obnoxious and did their utmost to make his life difficult. He moved to another nursery and again met with predjudice, one mother started stalking him! He is a kind, patient young man who cares deeply about children but was forced to change his career because of his gender, so very wrong!! One of the worst offenders against small children was a female nurse, its not the sex of the perpetrator its their character.

Not 'twisting things', if you are seeking clarification.

nanna8

I think people are talking about male childcare workers who are unrelated to the children. No one has said anything whatsoever about not allowing fathers to change their children’s nappies. Funny how people twist things.

I'mnot sure it is twisting. The question comes I think from the somewhat astounding comments being made about men in general within the context of looking after young children

I think people are talking about male childcare workers who are unrelated to the children. No one has said anything whatsoever about not allowing fathers to change their children’s nappies. Funny how people twist things.

Also only men (or small
Number of women) would be sexually aroused by changing a nappy.

MaggsMcG

For those people saying they would never allow soneone else to change their child's nappy, what happens if you are sick or physically incapacitated at any time. Do you not even allow their father to do it.

Or grandparents? Childminder? Never have a babysitter? 🤔

For those people saying they would never allow soneone else to change their child's nappy, what happens if you are sick or physically incapacitated at any time. Do you not even allow their father to do it.

As a teacher I have met many great men working in the caring professions. The problem is not men, it is abusers.

👏👏

Sadly I don't think it's possible to keep every child safe in every situation, very bad people will always find an opportunity to find a way of committing their vile crimes and if they find certain occupations blocked to them they will find another way of accessing children. I think there's good reasons to have men working with children. The can be role models for those children living in female only households and demonstrating that men can be equally effective as care givers, breaking down some of the stereotypes about how men should behave. I also think they might be more aware of behaviours in another man that might be a red flag.
I've unfortunately come across two paedophiles in my life that I know of! The first was a children's entertainer who was a very popular choice for children's parties. My daughter went to several, he was never left on his own with children or with a lone child but he still managed to molest them. The other was a man who volunteered with a club that my daughter was a member of, I also knew him socially. I avoided him because he tended to invade my personal space and one dance with him at a social event was enough to tell me he was far too handy for my taste! He was convicted of viewing the most vile child pornography and got several years in prison. However, despite this I don't immediately assume every children's entertainer or male volunteer is a paedophile and neither should we assume that about any male wanting to work with children.

Thank you foxie though, I am not trying to mislead, I am trying to explain the situation i see daily.
I see a mix of provision, what would have once been described as council nurseries, these sometimes have a teacher leading the room, then there are the chain nurseries, and then provision in church halls.
I would also say that more and more I am seeing very young supply staff. There is nothing wrong with being very young of course, but it all adds to a picture.

Sorry I mean the over 3 ' s which is the pre school rooms. I am in over 50 nurseries per year, many pre school rooms have only 2 or 3 staff.
So even with a ratio of 1:8, you could have three staff with 16 children, two gone leaves one staff with the rest of the children.

Due to ratios it is impossible to have two workers supervising nappy changes. I work in 3/4 year room which now takes 2/ half ages as well. My ratio is 1-8 two of us in a nappy change area would take the ratio down as two of us look after 16 children. Because of children wearing nappies some till school starts we have nappy changes all day. Plus toilet training and wee mishaps is a nightmare. I will retire with a very bad back. The industry especially the private sector will be diminishing as stress and other factors continue.

Galaxy I think you have misread the ratios of staff to children.
Under 2 is 1:3
Under 3 is 1:5
and over 3 is 1:8 but with a gradute lead can increase to 1:13.
These are minimum staffing ratios

I’m not for filming in nurseries but some have cameras in strategic points to allow oversights. I don’t see how the yiung female nursery worker could have punched and hurt infants if cameras had allowed supervisors to check in regulularly

I’ve worked in a nursery for 24 years and we haven’t had any male nursery practitioners till now. I’m working with a young lad now who is a big hit with the children and just as any female staff would be supervised during training and beyond he has been looked after. The nursery industry at the moment is going through a staff crisis and the average age of recruits has gone down to age 17/18 so unless this changes young staff whether they are male or female will be the only staff applying for jobs. Glad I’m retiring.

Without taking the discussion away from the OP's direction, but yet to answer questions ....

Things are complicated. There's a certain amount of discrepancy in the practical guidelines, because it is difficult to balance privacy with safeguarding and the need for support.

A lot can depend on the actual fabric of the building and where toilet areas are situated. Unless money is readily available, you can't just go redesigning spaces with more open access or change layouts to make such activities more visible to everyone.

I don't think that two workers at a time need to be involved in intimate care, and that's not possible anyway given staff:children ratios. But at least the caregiver should inform another staff member at the time, and the changing area should be visible and audible.

My point being if two staff are with a child toileting there would be zero staff with the other children.